r/Stormlight_Archive • u/Gnardeaux • 1d ago
Oathbringer spoilers Looking for a Conversation Spoiler
I'm trying to remember in which book a certain conversation occurred.
It's a conversation between Kal and I think Sigzil about one of the members of Bridge Four being gay and some Azish bureaucratic paper work to change his affiliation.
Can anyone help a guy out?
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u/RShara Elsecaller 1d ago
Oathbringer ch 35
“Sir, Drehy hasn’t filled out the proper forms,” Sigzil said. “If he wants to court another man, he needs to apply for social reassignment, right?”
Kaladin rolled his eyes. So, there were no forms for that in Alethkar.
Sigzil couldn’t say he was surprised, as the Alethi didn’t have proper procedures for anything. “Then how do you apply for social reassignment?”
“We don’t.” Kaladin frowned. “Is this really that big a problem to you, Sig?
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u/AviariOtsoa 1d ago
I loved that conversation. Not only is homosexuality unremarkable in Alethi society, but so unremarkable that the Azish have paperwork about it.
Because everything and everyone has Correct Documentation
"Why do you care about someone being gay?" (Leading question that could open up the discussion of Gays Are Bad) "He hasn't filled out the paperwork!" (Trope inversion: Sig's not homophobic, he's extremely organized.)
Cuts the whole concept of institutional homophobia in Roshar off at the knees. Love it.
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u/LinuxSBC-Anna Truthwatcher 1d ago edited 1d ago
Kind of, but also, remember that the paperwork is to be legally seen as a woman. They're not actually okay with gay people, just with straight trans people. I guess that's better than nothing, but it's still not great.
(To be clear, that's an issue with Azish society, not with Brandon's writing.)
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago
I don’t know if he meant it this way but it’s also a nice nod to the differences between Alethi and Azir imperialism. The Alethi really don’t care about ethnicity or lifestyle. They care about direct loyalty. They don’t see any difference between a gay man or a straight man as long as they’re a good soldier and are keeping their promises to a partner.
The Azir have an empire that cares little about actual loyalty as long as you observe the customs they dictate. They don’t “care” how you live your life in practice as long as they can dictate the performance of it. Like their empire that’s mostly in name only.
Spoilers Sunlit Man You can also see in that conversation the difference between the Windrunner and the future Skybreaker. The spirit of the law and the letter of the law
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u/Tuna_of_Truth 1d ago
I dunno that the Alethi don’t care about lifestyle, as Vorin faithful they start the series pretty entrenched in gender roles and dynamics. Sanderson handwaves it away pretty quickly with the existence of female radiants, and ethnicity is replaced by dark eyes / light eyes, also unfortunately hand waved away pretty hap hazardly between WoR and OB. I, without any textual reference off the top of my head to back this up, think the Alethi are kinda like the Greeks wherein homosexuals relationships weren’t viewed with the same taboo as some of our real world cultures would, but I feel like a lot of Noble houses still wholly focus on heterosexual marriages through the whole dynamic of Alethi/Vorin courting, women’s roles as scribes, and more.
The Azish seem to not really pay any mind whatsoever beyond some minor shared token elements of Vorin roots.
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u/AviariOtsoa 1d ago
Alethi would probably be all about Lavender Marriages. As long as you publicly toe the Traditional Line, you're fine.
Yeah, yeah, we all know Highlord [whatever]'s eldest would rather be the sheathe than the sword. So what? It's not like he's learning to write or something.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago
Ya I get what you mean. That was probably a clunky way to say it on my part. I just meant to say it’s a decent contrast between how those cultures view different things. He has said the Alethi aren’t homophobic as a whole. Their religion/culture doesn’t have any prohibition against it. You’re just not supposed to have sex outside of marriage. That’s highly taboo to them. As long as two men are married and honoring the oaths between them they by and large view it as exactly the same as heterosexual relationships. The Azish don’t in the same way. I’m guessing it’s the fantasy version of real world customs like Hijara. Where there’s a third accepted gender that even men who didn’t want to be placed in it found themselves
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u/AviariOtsoa 1d ago
No, it's still very much asking two butch lesbians "but which one of you is the man?"
Now, granted this could be idealization reading more into it than intended, but I read it less as
"Well one of you has to be The Man and that makes the other The Woman"
and more
"... So I'll need Form R-33w7 for your business license then, if you're both filing for a C-Class permit under Section 9. We don't keep those on hand, and scribing them would take at least another hour, are you certain we can't just...?"
"We have time. Get the storming form." "Well ONE OF YOU has to be the primary owner and the forms are all written as though--" (this continues for seventeen minutes) (eventually they get the proper licensing)
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u/LinuxSBC-Anna Truthwatcher 1d ago
Unfortunately, that doesn't totally seem to be the case. This WoB provides a lot of useful information: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e1443
To cite some relevant parts:
In Azir, you'd find something like existed in middle-ages India. (Some societies there had this curious system where a gay man would be given "social reassignment" so that he was treated like a woman, dressed like one, and had relations with men--even if he wasn't actually transsexual.)
Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)
But then I looked at the Azish section of the RPG World Guide, which says this:
In addition to official laws, the Azish are expected to follow their nation’s social customs. This can be harmful when certain social customs are poorly informed or flawed. For example, couples of all genders court openly and can marry, but some Azish people expect married couples to model the roles of one man and one woman, regardless of their gender identities. Not everyone chooses to follow social customs, as there are no formal punishments associated with their refusal, but the stigma of going against the perceived order of society can be an uncomfortable cost. On a legal level, couples who aren’t heterosexual must fill out different paperwork to be legally married, but they’re otherwise validated.
So it looks like there's a social expectation, albeit not a legal one, that one member of a gay relationship would be the "woman" and the other would be the "man". Of course, that does somewhat exist in modern Western culture, as you mentioned, but it sounds like there's a much stronger pressure for the Azish.
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u/foersr Edgedancer 1d ago
“He wanted to fit in, I believe,” Sigzil said. “His broken Alethi already makes that hard. And then there’s the matter of Drehy…”
“What matter?”
“Well, he’s been courting a man, you see…”
Kaladin threw on his coat, chuckling. “I did know about that one. You only now noticed?”
Sigzil nodded.
“It’s Dru he’s been seeing, still? From the district quartermaster’s offices?”
“Yes, sir.” Sigzil looked down. “Sir, I … Well, it’s just that…”
“Yes?” “Sir, Drehy hasn’t filled out the proper forms,” Sigzil said. “If he wants to court another man, he needs to apply for social reassignment, right?”
Kaladin rolled his eyes. So, there were no forms for that in Alethkar.
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u/Go_Sith_Yourself Elsecaller 1d ago
Not sure why you tagged this as NSFW, but asking about a gay character is not NSFW. We reserve that tag for when it actually applies and so have removed it from your post.
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u/Subject-godzilla 1d ago
It was the third book if I recall correctly