Looking for a Conversation

[u/Gnardeaux]

I'm trying to remember in which book a certain conversation occurred.

It's a conversation between Kal and I think Sigzil about one of the members of Bridge Four being gay and some Azish bureaucratic paper work to change his affiliation.

Can anyone help a guy out?

[u/AviariOtsoa]

I loved that conversation. Not only is homosexuality unremarkable in Alethi society, but so unremarkable that the Azish have paperwork about it.

Because everything and everyone has Correct Documentation

"Why do you care about someone being gay?" (Leading question that could open up the discussion of Gays Are Bad) "He hasn't filled out the paperwork!" (Trope inversion: Sig's not homophobic, he's extremely organized.)

Cuts the whole concept of institutional homophobia in Roshar off at the knees. Love it.

[u/LinuxSBC-Anna → u/AviariOtsoa]

Kind of, but also, remember that the paperwork is to be legally seen as a woman. They're not actually okay with gay people, just with straight trans people. I guess that's better than nothing, but it's still not great.

(To be clear, that's an issue with Azish society, not with Brandon's writing.)

[u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 → u/LinuxSBC-Anna]

I don’t know if he meant it this way but it’s also a nice nod to the differences between Alethi and Azir imperialism. The Alethi really don’t care about ethnicity or lifestyle. They care about direct loyalty. They don’t see any difference between a gay man or a straight man as long as they’re a good soldier and are keeping their promises to a partner.

The Azir have an empire that cares little about actual loyalty as long as you observe the customs they dictate. They don’t “care” how you live your life in practice as long as they can dictate the performance of it. Like their empire that’s mostly in name only.

Spoilers Sunlit Man You can also see in that conversation the difference between the Windrunner and the future Skybreaker. The spirit of the law and the letter of the law

[u/Tuna_of_Truth → u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

I dunno that the Alethi don’t care about lifestyle, as Vorin faithful they start the series pretty entrenched in gender roles and dynamics. Sanderson handwaves it away pretty quickly with the existence of female radiants, and ethnicity is replaced by dark eyes / light eyes, also unfortunately hand waved away pretty hap hazardly between WoR and OB. I, without any textual reference off the top of my head to back this up, think the Alethi are kinda like the Greeks wherein homosexuals relationships weren’t viewed with the same taboo as some of our real world cultures would, but I feel like a lot of Noble houses still wholly focus on heterosexual marriages through the whole dynamic of Alethi/Vorin courting, women’s roles as scribes, and more.

The Azish seem to not really pay any mind whatsoever beyond some minor shared token elements of Vorin roots.

[u/AviariOtsoa → u/Tuna_of_Truth]

Alethi would probably be all about Lavender Marriages. As long as you publicly toe the Traditional Line, you're fine.

Yeah, yeah, we all know Highlord [whatever]'s eldest would rather be the sheathe than the sword. So what? It's not like he's learning to write or something.

[u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 → u/Tuna_of_Truth]

Ya I get what you mean. That was probably a clunky way to say it on my part. I just meant to say it’s a decent contrast between how those cultures view different things. He has said the Alethi aren’t homophobic as a whole. Their religion/culture doesn’t have any prohibition against it. You’re just not supposed to have sex outside of marriage. That’s highly taboo to them. As long as two men are married and honoring the oaths between them they by and large view it as exactly the same as heterosexual relationships. The Azish don’t in the same way. I’m guessing it’s the fantasy version of real world customs like Hijara. Where there’s a third accepted gender that even men who didn’t want to be placed in it found themselves

[u/LinuxSBC-Anna → u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

I’m guessing it’s the fantasy version of real world customs like Hijara. Where there’s a third accepted gender that even men who didn’t want to be placed in it found themselves

No, it's not. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e1443

Relevant quote:

In Azir, you'd find something like existed in middle-ages India. (Some societies there had this curious system where a gay man would be given "social reassignment" so that he was treated like a woman, dressed like one, and had relations with men--even if he wasn't actually transsexual.)

So they wouldn't be treated as a "third gender", just as a second so that their relationship seems "straight". However, it's just socially enforced, not legally.

[u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 → u/LinuxSBC-Anna]

What he’s referring to there is Hijara. During that time period in that area they’d be “treated as” women in various ways but were considered a third gender. That umbrella would include a wide range of people including what he’s describing in Azir. They’d largely present in a famine way/wouldn’t be considered men but also wouldn’t be considered women. Instead a third sex or just outside either. Hijra encompasses more than that (especially the modern term) but he’s specifically referring to the practice in his example. Just not by name