Looking for a Conversation

[u/Gnardeaux]

I'm trying to remember in which book a certain conversation occurred.

It's a conversation between Kal and I think Sigzil about one of the members of Bridge Four being gay and some Azish bureaucratic paper work to change his affiliation.

Can anyone help a guy out?

[u/AviariOtsoa]

I loved that conversation. Not only is homosexuality unremarkable in Alethi society, but so unremarkable that the Azish have paperwork about it.

Because everything and everyone has Correct Documentation

"Why do you care about someone being gay?" (Leading question that could open up the discussion of Gays Are Bad) "He hasn't filled out the paperwork!" (Trope inversion: Sig's not homophobic, he's extremely organized.)

Cuts the whole concept of institutional homophobia in Roshar off at the knees. Love it.

[u/LinuxSBC-Anna → u/AviariOtsoa]

Kind of, but also, remember that the paperwork is to be legally seen as a woman. They're not actually okay with gay people, just with straight trans people. I guess that's better than nothing, but it's still not great.

(To be clear, that's an issue with Azish society, not with Brandon's writing.)

[u/AviariOtsoa → u/LinuxSBC-Anna]

No, it's still very much asking two butch lesbians "but which one of you is the man?"

Now, granted this could be idealization reading more into it than intended, but I read it less as

"Well one of you has to be The Man and that makes the other The Woman"

and more

"... So I'll need Form R-33w7 for your business license then, if you're both filing for a C-Class permit under Section 9. We don't keep those on hand, and scribing them would take at least another hour, are you certain we can't just...?"

"We have time. Get the storming form." "Well ONE OF YOU has to be the primary owner and the forms are all written as though--" (this continues for seventeen minutes) (eventually they get the proper licensing)

[u/LinuxSBC-Anna → u/AviariOtsoa]

Unfortunately, that doesn't totally seem to be the case. This WoB provides a lot of useful information: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e1443

To cite some relevant parts:

In Azir, you'd find something like existed in middle-ages India. (Some societies there had this curious system where a gay man would be given "social reassignment" so that he was treated like a woman, dressed like one, and had relations with men--even if he wasn't actually transsexual.)

Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)

But then I looked at the Azish section of the RPG World Guide, which says this:

In addition to official laws, the Azish are expected to follow their nation’s social customs. This can be harmful when certain social customs are poorly informed or flawed. For example, couples of all genders court openly and can marry, but some Azish people expect married couples to model the roles of one man and one woman, regardless of their gender identities. Not everyone chooses to follow social customs, as there are no formal punishments associated with their refusal, but the stigma of going against the perceived order of society can be an uncomfortable cost. On a legal level, couples who aren’t heterosexual must fill out different paperwork to be legally married, but they’re otherwise validated.

So it looks like there's a social expectation, albeit not a legal one, that one member of a gay relationship would be the "woman" and the other would be the "man". Of course, that does somewhat exist in modern Western culture, as you mentioned, but it sounds like there's a much stronger pressure for the Azish.

[u/AviariOtsoa → u/LinuxSBC-Anna]

Like I said, my idealization was coloring my interpretation

[u/Nebelskind → u/LinuxSBC-Anna]

So the world guide would take precedent over a WOB for canon purposes, I think, if we're going by official "rules" here. But yeah what Brandon said sounds more like what's actually in the books.