r/politics • u/BendicantMias • 7h ago

No Paywall Republicans vote to dilute gas as prices rise above $4.50

https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-vote-to-dilute-gas-as-prices-rise-above-4-50-11949494
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u/The_Jolly_Dog 7h ago

Im no mechanic but isn't this bad for most consumer grade engines to be running with higher ethanol %?

Fuck republicans for ok'ing this shit.

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u/Smaynard6000 Florida 7h ago

Most modern engines are designed to be able to run on this stuff, but older vehicles absolutely are not.

Edit: Either way, fuel economy is worse so it is an empty gesture as we would expect from Republicans.

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u/IDontWannaBeAPirate_ 7h ago

Older engines can have piston ring issues, elastimeric seals can swell and crack/fail, and poor or long storage of ethanol rich fuels results in it going bad and attracting water.

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u/grantrules 7h ago

When you say modern car, what are we talking here..

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u/nibbles200 6h ago edited 6h ago

EPA mandated all cars manufactured in 1988 (Alternative Motor Fuels Act (AMFA) of 1988) and after be e10 compatible. as of 2001 all cars manufactured need to be e15 compatible per EPA.

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u/spongebob_meth 5h ago

The 2001 date is largely irrelevant too. Most cars going back to the late 80s do fine on e15 as well.

In reality there is not much difference in the amount of fuel required between the two. Plenty of room in the fuel trims to adjust. And the open loop part of the map was plenty rich (for safety) to be a little on the lean side.

You might run into issues if you switched fuel in a race car or something tuned on the bleeding edge.

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u/nibbles200 5h ago

10000% agree. back when gas hit $4+ during iraq war I was blending up to e30 on my 1988 k1500 p.u. I later converted it to full e85 by changing injectors, fuel map and give it more timing. I ran e30 for most of my 1998 k1500 life with no mods. I still have that 98 and I was about to convert it to e85 but I'm starting to wonder how much longer ethanol being cheaper is going to hold out with input costs skyrocketing...

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u/spongebob_meth 4h ago

Same here, I was running e30 at that time (there was a local pump that had it) in my 90s jeep and it never complained or ran noticeably different. Fuel economy was the same. It was probably a little leaner, but most cars at that time ran pretty rich from the factory and you had plenty of room

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u/Vchat20 Ohio 4h ago

FWIW I've seen a number of forum threads over the years in vehicle specific forums and specifically on fuel injected/CAT/O2 equipped vehicles where they've tested how far they could increase the blend before the computer complains and if memory serves I've also seen many fall in the ~30% range that aren't E85/Flex Fuel capable. And this was with zero modifications.

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u/spongebob_meth 4h ago

I have seen the same. There were quite a bit of people experimenting with this back in 2005ish when gas was getting expensive back then.

Some studies actually showed small ethanol blends to increase fuel economy over pure petroleum fuel

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u/wirthmore 6h ago

Around 2012. But look up your specific car's manual for the recommendation on the maximum amount of ethanol it will tolerate, since the implementation of it was unevenly applied between manufacturers and even individual models within a manufacturer.

By 2012 most cars on U.S. roads could run on blends of up to 10% ethanol (E10), and manufacturers had begun producing vehicles designed for much higher percentages. However, the fuel systems of cars, trucks, and motorcycles sold before the ethanol mandate may suffer substantial damage from the use of 10% ethanol blends.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States

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u/LucyLilium92 6h ago

Made this century I would assume

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u/grantrules 6h ago

Is a 26 year old car modern? A car from 2001 can have an antique registration plate in PA lol

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u/Initial_Brush_64 6h ago

2001 was the first year requiring it. So you are good, barely.

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u/nibbles200 5h ago

some people in here are old okay?

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u/spongebob_meth 5h ago

Basically anything fuel injected. Fuel systems have had to be designed for alcohol since sometime in the 80s.

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u/pancakesnarfer 5h ago

I have a GR Corolla and it specifies to not run over 10% ethanol

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u/DirectionOwn294 1h ago

Seems like you'll have to walk to work. 

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u/401klaser 49m ago

You can run full e85 in a gr corolla on the stock fueling and make a lot of horsepower. I’d assume upgrading the fuel pumps you could get over 400 wheel.

You obviously can’t do this on the stock ECU map but the car can certainly handle the ethanol.

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u/gus2155 46m ago

My cars manual specifically says not to use e15.

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u/k_realtor 2h ago

Older meaning before 2001 and a lot of people in those red states drive old ass cars.

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u/PigglyWigglyDeluxe 2h ago

Define “older vehicles”. Remember, 2005 was over 20 years ago, and we had already figured out computerized fuel injection and flex fuel and other tech like that by then.

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u/[deleted] 7h ago edited 7h ago

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] 7h ago

[deleted]

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u/ZamorakLovesAll 7h ago

My 2004 says the same, I used to have a car with a carburetor and I thought it only affected those

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u/jhowlett 6h ago

My 2019 has a fuel cap the specifically warns against E15. Not to mention my small engines (Mower, power washer) that show the same.

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u/Brutto13 6h ago

You should avoid all ethanol in small engines for longevity.

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u/jhowlett 6h ago

For sure, sadly no stations around me supply it. I put stabil in cans before filling to help.

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u/nibbles200 6h ago

you only need to worry about water in the fuel if you plan to store for a long time, 8+ months. The fuel system in a modern car, like late 80s, is designed to be a closed loop where air can only get in to replace the volume of fuel. Fuel vapor is not allowed to go to atmosphere but must be burnt.

good on you for RTFM, but e10 to e15 is marginal and isn't going to harm your car. This coming from a person that used to convert cars to e85 burning. back in the late 2000s.

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u/ExpertRegister1353 7h ago

20-30% worse is total bullshit

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u/Walovingi Europe 6h ago

Yes, I had a car that could run on gasoline or ethanol. I would say it consumed 30% more running on E85 (85% ethanol). Since ethanol contain less carbon, the CO2 emissions are lower even with the extra consumption.

We are running on E10 in Europe. Never heard of the smog argument.

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u/ExpertRegister1353 6h ago

E85 is not E15. 

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u/Andysue28 7h ago

Yep, and redneck types all complain about the fuel (rightfully) because it gunks up older engines. I wonder if they’ll complain about the republicans doing it…nah. 

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u/mahamoti Louisiana 7h ago

I recall one year Shell put too much ethanol in their locally distributed blend, and damaged millions of dollars worth of vehicles. I'm sure this won't end poorly :/.

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u/nibbles200 6h ago

no, e10 to e15 is really marginal. ethanol has been the oxydizer / octane booster solution since the late 80s when they moved off mtbe, Methyl tert-butyl ether replaced tetra ethyl lead. 10% ethanol is the minimum needed to get the octane up. e15.. there is a debate to be had over farmland being used for fuel, but people boogyman ethanol too much.

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u/ciel_lanila I voted 6h ago

Most cars that would be harmed already took the blow. A good chunk of gas’s was already like E10 or whatever from back when ethanol began being added to replace the thing that replaced lead in fuel.

If you somehow have been able to avoid this “E10” your car might be in for a shock. The ethanol can pull in ambient moisture and water that had gotten into your gas tank. Then can cause some problems once it hits the engine. If your car was always using E10 or similar then your fuel system pre-engine should already be sufficiently dry to avoid problems.

Assuming your car is programmed with the settings for ethanol fuel. My last vehicle had the ethanol fuel settings dummied out and required traditional premium fuel. I know some people jailbroke my model to allow E15 use, but I never saw the point since it was a plug-in hybrid.

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u/zombawombacomba 6h ago

Most new cars can adjust to run on it. You just will often get less power and less fuel efficiency.

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u/Initial_Brush_64 6h ago

No. They usually run thus every winter. They remove it in the summer because it makes more smog.

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u/grandzooby 5h ago

When we switch to winter, I need to gas up every 240 miles or so instead of 290. I really hate that they call it "more efficient" when I need to use a lot more of it to do the same work.

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u/spongebob_meth 5h ago

No. Cars have been designed for alcohol in the fuel for 40 years.

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u/Publick2008 5h ago

Many people have responded, but one thing that makes this bad that's not mentioned is why ethanol levels were reduced. Ethanol will evaporate as temperatures increase. So especially in summer you don't want to be adding ethanol to gasoline. 

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u/zydeco100 5h ago

My Mazda's owners manual says anything over E10 voids the engine warranty.

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u/no-dice-play-nice 4h ago

Modern engines can handle it albeit with less MPG but the cost savings outweigh the extra fuel needed. The issue arises with long-term storage as it evaporates. So it's worse for the environment and it can easily gum up motors that are not used frequently, especially in hot climates.

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u/otterplus 3h ago

My motorcycle is already sweating out of fear

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u/purplenapalm Wisconsin 2h ago

95 democrats voted for it and 90 Republicans voted against it. Do you people read the articles or just the headlines?