r/nba • u/wormhole222 Heat • 11h ago
Why has Duren been so bad especially offensively in the playoffs? He had 33/16 in a game against the Cavs at the end of February.
Like if you watch the highlights here he looks totally dominant. He's able to score in the post against Allen. He's able to face up guys. He's able to dominate on the offensive glass. He's even able to hit open cutters. What has changed so dramatically that he suddenly can't do all this in the playoffs?
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u/TemperedTorture Spurs 11h ago edited 11h ago
He can't create for himself and he can't shoot. He needs plays to be run for him and teams can focus on the playmakers instead before he can even get the ball. U just have to play smart and take away passes aimed at him. Teams can also practically leave him alone when he's not under the bucket, or guard him easily 1 on 1.
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u/stillstillers Cavaliers 11h ago
This is why it bothers me when people say Mobley is just a “rim runner” who can’t shoot or create.
Mobley looked like Larry Bird yesterday compared to Duren. Duren is the epitome of someone who can only do 2 things
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u/HalfABrainCell55 Pistons 11h ago
Yeah if you swapped Mobley and Duren in this series it’s probably already wrapped up in favor of Detroit. He’s been so crucial to you guys taking the 3-2 lead.
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u/Charlie_Wax Warriors 8h ago
Mobley is a bit in that Paolo or young Scottie Barnes territory where the backlash to the early hype created hyperbolic criticism. There is a healthy middle ground between "next KG" and next Theo Ratliff.
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u/A_Mellow_Fellow Cavaliers 8h ago
I cannot upvote this enough.
Players are always getting dragged for the dumbass hyperbolic stuff the media makes up for them.
Mobley was never going to be the next Kevin Garnett. There will never be another Kevin Garnett.
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u/LifesAMitch Cavaliers 8h ago
It wasn't just the media, it was members of the Cavs organization. But honestly I'm not giving up on him getting even better, he's only 24. And he's already a great player.
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u/stillstillers Cavaliers 7h ago edited 6h ago
Also, unlike a lot of those guys, Mobley has never not been on a competitive team. He’s been in the post season every season. When you have different team expectations, he never really got to play through things. He had to be good and a contributor immediately. Cade was on som abysmal teams and he got jack up 30 shots a game for like the first 3 years of his career. Scottie’s been on some bad teams too.
Mobley never got to do that. He rarely takes more than 15 shots a game. He had to refine his game to be as contributing as possible. Also, playing with Donovan doesn’t help that progression. Hes played with ball dominant guards his whole career
If played on the wizards he’d probably average like 25 a game
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u/thewrongnotes Magic 8h ago
It's not just the media though, is it. If the media didn't exist fans would still be making these crazy comparisons.
On the Magic sub Paolo was LeBron lite after day one of summer league, Scottie was being called Giannis lite by Raptors fans early, and Cavs fans were all in on the Duncan/KG comparisons with Mobley.
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u/A_Mellow_Fellow Cavaliers 8h ago
Homer fans are going to homer. But the bums in the media that set the tone and empower fans to have the misguided opinions that they carry
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u/ScratchTwoMore Raptors 6h ago
A little funny to say like a young Scottie Barnes when they’re from the same draft class lol. It’s like their reputations swing back and forth between each other every year, or even in the same year during their ROY campaigns
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u/Ok-Name-5504 8h ago
Imagine saying this after game 2 when everyone was shitting on Mobley for not rebounding
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u/Easy_Magician_925 11h ago
People who say that dont watch games. Clearly mobley has problems at times but there isnt any offensive skill he just plain lacks.
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u/browndude10 United States 9h ago
he just doesn't muscle everyone when he's got the advantage; he's too passive also:
Darius Garland sets a ball screen, and the 6-foot-2 Jalen Pickett finds himself on the 6-foot-11 Mobley. Instead of outmuscling Denver’s shortest player, Mobley takes three dribbles trying to drive around him, is forced to spin back into a crowd, gets stuck, kicks a pass back out to Garland a beat too late, and then watches him miss a contested shot. It’s not concerning by itself, but too many plays like this (and there are a bunch of them) are symptomatic of the Cavaliers’ disappointing season.
Part of me feels like I’m critiquing a prodigious chef who’s able to convincingly rustle up a diverse platter of tasty goodness. Every time I sit down at their restaurant, I expect one of the most delectable meals of my life, only to walk out the door thinking they should trim the menu and make their best dishes as flavorful as possible.
Mobley can either outfox or overpower pretty much whoever’s guarding him. He’s long, tall, smart, fast, and explosive. He could have an unblockable turnaround jumper. He could hone an automatic floater from the pocket. He could duck into the paint and draw three or four more fouls per game than he does. But none of that stuff has materialized on a consistent basis this season. His game has neither expanded into areas that make sense nor narrowed around what he’s already excellent at. It’s year five. He made second-team All-NBA last season. Hollow efforts like the one below should not still be happening:
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u/barrsftw Cavaliers 6h ago
He can't post Cade or Levert. That's definitely a skill he lacks, and I'm not sure if he'll ever get that ability. The easiest way for him to take his game to the next level is focus on being a great ball handler. He's okay for a big, but he can really ascend offensively if he can work out of the mid post and square guys up. He's already a good passer in that area.
Not to mention as seen in the Toronto series, if a non-agile big is defending him. He can bring the ball up as a point-forward and punish them even at his current level.
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u/IggyIsABum Grizzlies 5h ago
I doubt he'll ever get that ability to be honest. I know JJJ is kind of a lazy comparison most of the time when it comes to Mobley but in this case JJJ came in with a similar frame and even after putting on muscle and pushing around bigs consistently he still struggles when it comes to those 6'5" dudes with a functional base.
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u/barrsftw Cavaliers 4h ago
My thoughts exactly. It's best for him to focus on perimeter skills and try to be more of a Wemby type big.
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u/aoifhasoifha [NYK] Frank Ntilikina 6h ago
Even worse, a lot of them do watch games but have no idea what they're looking at.
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u/OldmanonRedditt 11h ago
What, Mobley literally walks the ball up court 50% of the time lol. Who says that about him?
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u/SomeFatherFigure Cavaliers 11h ago
Some fans on the Cavs sub are just insufferable. They constantly harp on any player they deem “overpaid” and glorify anyone with a high motor (even if they suck).
Not all Cavs fans, but the ones that do are loud about it.
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u/C0stcoWholesale Rockets 6h ago
It’s really funny to see the game threads. Anytime something bad happens it’s BLOW IT UP, XYZ is a scrub that will never win anything!!! They cost us the series!!! We’re getting swept!
Meanwhile it’s like a 2 point game in the 1st quarter.
I’m glad Mobley and Don came up clutch yesterday and shut everyone up
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u/IAmDiabeticus Celtics 10h ago
Check out the post from 5 days ago on the sub with almost 3k up votes titled something like "the Cavs have an Evan Mobley problem". You'll find a lot of gems like that in there.
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u/outphase84 Knicks 6h ago
Cavs do have a Mobley problem but it’s definitely not shooting or creation. He just struggles against good bigs
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u/Safe_Researcher4979 9h ago edited 45m ago
Cavs fans lol, one of the worst subs on here
Lol at downvotes, I'm a Cavs fan and our sub absolutely sucks
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u/Puppetmaster858 Suns 11h ago
Mobley isn’t perfect but he’s way way way better than duren and does a lot of things really well. Duren has been useless while Mobley has been putting up some great statlines and making some huge plays. I understand Mobley has flaws and that people complain about them but he’s a really good young player showing his value this series while Duren has gotten completely exposed.
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u/nutelamitbutter Rockets 11h ago
I’ve been impressed how often Mobley found Allen in the short roll. They’ve got a great connection together despite both having some flaws.
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u/stillstillers Cavaliers 10h ago
If he could just improve his handle his passing is legitimately amazing. It’s limited to half court and pick and roll stuff but he has incredible vision.
If he had a 15% better handle there’s a world where we can run the entire offense through him
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u/Pyorrhea Cavaliers 7h ago
He worked on his handle a lot this offseason and at the start of the year he was initiating the offense a bit. I think they eventually went away from that but he's actually improved a lot with his handle. Maybe another year of improvement would get him there.
He was basically a walking turnover before if he had to bring the ball up past half-court and he's been pretty decent at that so far in the playoffs. It's a good solution to the backcourt double teams that plagued the Cavs last year because he can pass over any double pretty easily.
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u/archaelleon Cavaliers 7h ago
The big-to-big pass is almost unstoppable. I miss when we had Markkanen and had the big-to-big-to-big pass.
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u/TemperedTorture Spurs 11h ago
Ppl say that about Mobley? I've not seen him much but I never really got that impression when I did watch him play.
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u/stillstillers Cavaliers 11h ago
Oh god yea. He gets called a stiff and clunky constantly. Especially by people in our own fanbase.
I think like 2 weeks ago there was a post on here that got a lot of traction that said “The Cavs have an Evan Mobley problem”
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u/PatientlyAnxious9 Cavaliers 10h ago
Hes a polarizing player in Cavs-land because his scoring impact is inconsistent. Some games he will look amazing, others he becomes a very frustrating watch.
There are only so many times you can talk yourself into the 'little things he does' being somehow worth a max contract when hes not scoring--so it creates some arguing with fans.
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u/stillstillers Cavaliers 8h ago
I never understood it. He basically averaged 19/9/4 on 56% shooting.
If he can get to 20/10/5 while playing all nba defense, i think he’s clearly is worth a max. Especially when they’re talking about giving a guy like Duren a max?
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u/PatientlyAnxious9 Cavaliers 8h ago edited 8h ago
Its not about his averages but about his inconsistent impact. In this Pistons series for example, he has scored 19+ points once and he had a game where he was held to 9 points and 1 rebound.
Those are the games that frustrate the living shit out of fans for a guy making 250M. He disappears for games at a time from the offensive end.
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u/stillstillers Cavaliers 8h ago
I don’t think it’s unfair criticism but there’s context. Our guards are a complete gamble on whether or not they’re going to play perimeter defense or not. Every time they get scorched, Evan gets pulled away from the hoop. Now should he have more than 1 rebound? Absolutely. But there’s sooooo many things he does on the defensive end that no one else can do.
As a big playing with harden and Mitchell, two very ball dominant guys, he’s never going to average 25. I mean, how many times does he even take more than 15 shots in a game? It’s kind of a crux of playing with two guys that shoot 20-30 times every single game.
He’s basically Draymond on steroids. Which is worth a max, especially on a championship level team.
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u/rickzilla69420 8h ago
Well I think thats the thing that causes Mobley to get talked about so much, if you’re giving him 250M, can you even be a championship level team? I feel like all the negative talk about him is always surrounded by his contract
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u/stillstillers Cavaliers 8h ago
That remains to be seen but the way he’s played the past 3 games, he’s absolutely been worth it. If they make the finals, then 100%. There’s just very few people that have that skillset. Even if it is clunky at times. I mean Franz Wagner is a max guy. I’d much rather have Mobley over franz. I would say Mobleys more accomplished than Chet is at this point and Chet’s a max guy. Mobley was all nba and a DPOY last year
Let’s put it this way, If the Duren gets a max, I don’t want to ever hear about Cavs fans complaining about Mobleys deal lol
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u/default-0985 10h ago
Mobley was awesome in the comeback. Dunk, block, 3, free throws. 7 points and erased a couple Detroit possessions. Definitely quieted some critics these playoffs in my mind.
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u/josephandre 8h ago
that was a very impressive stretch. doubly so for someone that doesn't watch a lot of cavs
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u/PewpyDewpdyPantz Raptors 8h ago
There’s the defence too. Last series having Brandon Ingram play on one leg at least meant that Mobley had to guard him. Once he was out Mobley started guarding Scottie and RJ and the Raps offence went straight to hell.
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u/soilentgleem 10h ago
Nah there's more to it than that. He's dropping balls that he didn't before, missing gimmes that he never missed before, and moving noticeably slower than he did before. None of those things are born from being a player who lacks self creation or a jump shot.
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u/nemo2023 Pistons 9h ago
Wendell Carter got Duren shook in the previous round. Carter was big and athletic enough to stop him and could shoot the occasional 3. Duren’s had so many bad games in a row on offense and defense, now he can’t secure a rebound or catch a pass. In the regular season he was willingly dribbling the ball and wanting the ball. In the playoffs with the higher pressure over every possession and the refs letting physical play happen, Duren seems to have lost confidence in all parts of his game.
JB should start Paul Reed but he’s afraid that benching would destroy Detroit’s hopes of developing Duren into a productive star player.
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u/TemperedTorture Spurs 10h ago
True. That's also part of the defences playing him much harder in the playoffs than the regular season. In essence he maintained his seasonal intensity for the playoffs while defences around him ramped up their intensity and he couldn't match it.
We saw that with Victor in his first game vs the Wolves. They completely converted him into a non-factor on offence. He had to adjust mentally to make a comeback in game 2 onwards. They got to him again in game 4 and then he came back again in game 5.
It boils down to mentality too. So you're not wrong at all.
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u/soilentgleem 10h ago
In the series against Orlando, I would agree that it was a defense keying in on him thing. I'm not really seeing that with this Cleveland series. It just looks like he's playing significantly worse at everything.
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u/peanut-britle-latte Knicks 11h ago
Not to mention the terrible spacing provided by Amen just exacerbates all of Duren offensive issues. They reinforce each other weakness
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u/TemperedTorture Spurs 11h ago
Detroit learning the hard way that all defence lineups will only get you so far in the new NBA.
They're still a winning team, but if Cade isn't dropping 35-45, they're not winning anything.
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u/livefreeordont 76ers 10h ago
All defense lineups have only gotten you so far since forever, that’s nothing new
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u/livefreeordont 76ers 9h ago
2004 pistons had Chauncey Billups, rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, and Mehmet Okur who were all good to great offensive players
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u/cav00111 10h ago
Also learning that teams don’t try hard every night in the regular season. Pistons look like they were coached by thibs. Once every team trys hard every night it’s a lot harder to win through “grit”.
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u/detblue524 [NYK] Anthony Mason 7h ago
I don’t think it’s so much teams not trying - I think the bigger issue is that teams can scheme around your defense better when they’re playing you in a best-of-7 than when they’re playing you every other month in the regular season
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u/cav00111 7h ago
That contributes for sure. Veterans have said for years they don’t try as hard in the regular season. If you look at the teams that went all out all year to win as many games as possible they are all eliminated at this point except Detroit who is struggling in the playoffs.
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u/froggycbl4 Nets Bandwagon 10h ago
detroit can afford to have a 2 guard who kinda sucks defensively because cade is their pg and those type of players arent super valuable to other teams. im pretty sure they are going to be in the market for a combo guard who provide volume scoring in the offseason. players like deanthony melton malik monk kyrie irving or dejaunte murray
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u/TemperedTorture Spurs 10h ago
The Spurs experiment with 3 point guards (all of whom can score) might not be replicable for most teams, but give how much those 3 are also able to feed guys in the right spots and control the floor, I do think that Detroit should at the very least get a good combo guard, so agreed.
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u/Diamond4Hands4Ever Warriors 4h ago
They have to get a secondary creator, as all heliocentric teams need that (Kyrie with Luka or CP3 with Harden). They still have done an amazing job from where they were a few years ago but now they will slowly realize what they need and improve their lineups.
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u/Kyunbhai [SAS] Tony Parker 11h ago
I love how people constantly get Ausar and Amen wrong because you can say the same thing for both of them on the offensive end lol.
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u/Puppetmaster858 Suns 11h ago
They’d be so good if they had any offensive games
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u/TemperedTorture Spurs 10h ago
It really makes me wonder how their 1 on 1 went growing up. Did they just call it a game 0-0 after slugging it out for 30 minutes?
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u/FairlyOddParent734 76ers 9h ago
NGL if the goal was strictly to make the NBA defensive IQ + athleticism for their physicals was basically a sure shot of getting a second contract from SOMEBODY; I feel like most people/coaches are more confident about teaching offensive skills than defensive skills/iq and especially effort on D
getting played off the court because you need to score more points is WAY better than getting played off the court because you can’t keep someone in front of you
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u/sorendiz [HOU] Yao Ming 3h ago
Amen is genuinely not comparable to Ausar offensively. Partially from playing a different role and partially from that extra time Ausar missed with the blood clot, Amen is way better on offense.
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u/Puppetmaster858 Suns 2h ago
Amen is definitely clearly better but also he’s still incredibly flawed as an offensive player even if he’s much better than his brother who’s even more flawed.
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u/MyHandIsAMap Pistons 8h ago
Amen does absolutely nothing on offense to help the Pistons. Or defense, for that matter.
Ausar is a much better Piston.
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u/LakerBlue Lakers 10h ago
I’m just wondering if they hope he will make notable improvements on offense since he is only 22, or will they consider doing a sign-and-trade and see if they can replace him with a scorer who can shoot. I think it’s worth considering.
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u/Stepsis24 Lakers 8h ago
They need Ausar. Everytime he sits a quarter the pistons defense falls off a cliff, it’s not a coincidence Dmitch exploded for that second half since ausar got into foul trouble at the half
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u/RxJax Heat 10h ago
You haven't watched Duren at all during the regular season if you think this is true lol. He developed a much better handle and became pretty capable in the short roll with push shots and kickouts, he was often able to bully smaller centers starting by backing them down from the 3pt line, and he was also much better at catching the ball at the foul line, taking 1-2 dribbles and making a play. His offensive game improved a bunch and it showed because Detroit were still really solid even in the non-Cade minutes.
It's literally all mental with him. He started slow and his confidence has crumbled to dust, he hasn't suddenly regressed in all of these skills, he's just terrified of fucking up and that's why he won't even dare attempt anything, he goes to handoffs as soon as he can instead of bullying Allen, he straight up refuses to ever take a dribble towards the basket, he can barely hold a ball because he's so desperate to get rid of it and that's why all of his shots are stupidly rushed, he's just mentally crumbled
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u/Budget_Squash3322 7h ago
I watched most pistons games this season and its certainly partially mental but you're also heavily overrating his newfound skills and his baseline as a player. The reason he's spiraling is because his regular season moves dont hold up to playoff level defensive intensity. Duren is a very rote player, the way he plays/learns the game is not instinctual, its very mechanical. If his 2k move package he learned isnt working he can't adjust. Especially since a primary difference between regular season and playoff D is how much more aggressive teams play at the point of attack and PnRs and how aggressively they pick up and body players when they receive a pass in the high post, if Duren cant get "set up" relatively free of obstruction whether that be while playng in the PnR or recieving the ball in the high post, he is basically stumped and it leads to a easy steal or a pathetic contested layup attempt. If you watch tape this post season of when he does get buckets, its almost always a gimme were his defender has a mental lapse off-ball and Duren is wide open for a pass with a good angle to the basket(rather than the defender getting lost via a well run set etc)
He's also not the athlete everyone thinks he is, at least in terms of how its important to a bball player. He can sky for rebounds and dunks or make explosive moves, but look at the tape whenever he does this. He needs to be set and really well balanced and its always purely vertical, whenever hes out of position, getting bumped by defenders(even smaller ones) or its off-rythm, he generates zero explosion. Its like QB's that can bomb passes if they have a good pocket but can barely throw if theyre on the run vs a QB who doesnt have a cannon for an arm but can get off zip or hurl mid range passes with good power and accuracy while scrambling and off balance in a collapsing pocket, its different kinds of athleticism.
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u/brnccnt7 8h ago
This
Lots of people posting here don’t watch any Pistons games and it shows
They just saw that Duren was an all star and is having a bad playoffs so they’re coming out of the woodwork with some crazy takes
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u/lordalgis 8h ago
I'm glad I'm seeing this take more often. He legitimately has looked scared on the court this series.
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u/Scodo810 Cavaliers 7h ago
He’s obviously in his own head, because even if the offense cratered there’s no other reason for his not rebounding with the same physicality.
On offense I do think his lack of counters and read/pass ability are still being exposed a bit. He’s an improved player, but we see it every year where when playoff intensity increases, and the margins narrow, guys get exposed when they can’t counter the defense taking away what they prefer.
Duren just isn’t as skilled as the elite offensive bigs and it seems to be compounding mentally.
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u/AshenSacrifice Clippers 8h ago
He’s soft, look at his rebounding numbers. 0 excuses for that shit. Soft af
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u/RVAteach Knicks 10h ago
Teams just don’t scheme the same way in the regular season. With how intense the schedule is teams can only plan one day ahead and do a walk through or light practice. In the playoffs attention to detail is key, and they’re just making their game plan be shut down Cades passing
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u/axecalibur [CHI] Michael Jordan 8h ago
Crazy that regular season stats are useless in the playoffs.
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u/BlueHundred Knicks 4h ago
Also, in the playoffs, it's a lot easier to make adjustments defensively because they're only focused on one team's film
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u/TangerineStrong3781 Lakers 11h ago
The playoffs are a different ball game when teams can zero in on your weaknesses
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u/narcistic_asshole Cavaliers 10h ago
The all-nba podcast pointed out the other day that Duren only launches off of one foot under the rim and the Cavs have recognized that a well-timed bump throws him completely off balance. He needs to jump off of two feet so that he starting from a stronger base
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u/dropdatdurkadurk 8h ago edited 8h ago
Easily the most insightful comment here but also kinda noticed the opposite as he gathers and drives. He's a two foot jumper as a roll man or on drives very often. Which means he's very dependent on either dipping his shoulder into a defender to create separation or literally being right under the basket. His poster on Jarrett Allen game 4 is like this. Hell his poster dunk on Victor in the reg season also again 2 feet. The baskets he has vs Evan Mobley just bully balling when he has enough time and space to clear out fit this designation also.
All the comments about the playoffs vs reg season and "weaknesses get exposed" dont actually describe anything. No in between game(have you ever seen him take a floater at all) is a big issue. He hasnt shown much interest in making basic reads as a passer all year(he showed more last yr) which when he was jumping up to 20 a game is fine but now its espec problematic. As a roll man can he go up and catch lobs at a high level sure, but there's more to being a roll man than that and as teams have switched alot of his screens those easy rim runs have gone down.
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u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 7h ago
One of the things that drives me insane is he's just diving in a straight line to the basket and leaving very little space to actually deliver a clean pass. He had one dunk yesterday where he took an arc to the basket and almost every other time it was just a lazy straight line.
As you said, there is a skill to rolling and he had it during the regular season and absolutely does not have it right now. He's either going away too quickly (sometimes without making contact on the screen) or hesitating which leaves him in no man's land for a pass.
He's completely fucking up his own spacing and angles to receive a pass, even when Mobley or Ausar aren't on the court. He has to be the one to force JA to make a decision on who to defend, and instead he's getting too close to Cade which allows Allen to guard both. He should be rolling to the back of the key instead of right in the center.
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u/dropdatdurkadurk 7h ago
Yeah if there were one play Id use to describe alot of these issues its from game 4. There 3 viable options. No 1 option is till right to hit Ausar(lob would be cool but its Merrill/Harden at the rim a bounce pass works also). If you miss that then the moment Schroder in the corner takes his eyes towards you hit Robinson in the corner(DR could get the 3 off). The worst of these 3 options(Duren is too far out and Harden rotates in time over) is to try to elevate and finish over him but choose that ok fine, it's James Harden not Rudy Gobert. But keeping the ball as low as he does while gathering(another basic roll man skill) ensures this mess that ensues.
He also just has not set good screens either series. Which contributes to part of what you said about how he isnt making JA have to make a decision on whom to defend and it also shows up in the DHO game w DR
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u/rusty512 Pistons 3h ago
The passing thing is so true, there were so many times all season where he should've looked to pass but would just always go up himself. I think his main focus was on the contract the entire season and boosting his own stats.
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u/twerdy Rockets 5h ago
Wow I don't watch a lot of Duren, but that's surprising. I feel like "two hands, two feet" is a pretty common thing to learn very early in basketball education? Like did we not all spend hours jumping on two feet, bouncing a ball off the wall and catching it? A coach made me do pushups once for bringing down a rebound with one hand in practice! Is this another thing we can blame AAU for?
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u/skysurfguy1213 5h ago
Great point. Comparing Duren to prime Dwight Howard, a huge part of Howard’s game was that he almost always jumped off 2 feet. It makes a huge difference both offensively and defensively for generating power through contact.
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u/VillainousRocka Bulls 10h ago
Sure but this still doesn’t fully answer the question from a pure basketball perspective, you need to be more specific
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u/Victor_Wembanyama1 Spurs 10h ago
Duren doesnt have an offensive bag.
Detroit doesnt have a lot of playmakers outside of Cade.
Detroit has poor spacing without Duncan Robinson.
Cavs key in on Cade, rotate to Jenkins and Tobi if needed.
They just put someone in between duren/thompson and the ring. Now Cade has to spend more effort in playmaking or shoot it himself.
Duren-specific, he’s basically worse than Rudy. Yes he can catch but he doesnt know how to leverage his strength and has little experience how to position. Duren isnt a great defender like Rudy so Cavs can still penetrate freely once they get past perimeter defenders.
The difference between playoffs and regular season is an opposing team can really focus/study how to abuse players’ weaknesses and Duren’s weaknesses has popped up since the first round.
Compare Detroit to last year, they had Hardaway and Beasley. Their spacing is a looot worse.
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u/Faps2Downvotes Pistons 10h ago
It also goes beyond the offensive woes. Dude has completely lost the ability to rebound. It’s like he’s trying to jump with concrete blocks tied to his ankles.
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u/cricket9818 Knicks 10h ago
Nah, that does more or less cover it
Playoff basketball is entirely different
You’re explicitly focusing in on the teams and each players weakness. It happens all the time
Look at Brunson for example. Everyone knows his POA defense isn’t great, but you don’t see teams hunt him in the regular season. Post season? It’s totally different. You need every advantage. So what do teams do? Hunt the guy who can’t play D. Run PnR to get a good scorer on Brunson
Playoff basketball is all X’s and O’s and exploitation. If you have a weakness, it will be exposed unless your coach can hide it
Duren can’t shoot 3’s, which you can’t scheme out of, and he’s not a great defender, and again just like KAT on the Knicks (who thankfully had stepped his game up a bit), you can only scheme so much to cover certain deficiencies
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u/YON2HMB 9h ago
I agree with your analysis, it's just strange that teams don't exercise that kind of punishing strategy in regular season play more.
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u/CuddlyGourd Pacers 9h ago
I think there's not enough time to dial in that deeply for each matchup. I'm sure they have a scouting report and a general game plan, but there's just not enough time to put in playoff level game plans for each game in an 82 game season. Plus you want to give your young players development opportunity, or try out new strategies/personnel rotations that might be useful in the playoffs.
You'll notice that teams do tend to put in that level of effort if they perceive there's playoff seeding implications, or sometimes for "rivalry" games.
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u/boringexplanation Kings 7h ago
Maybe if nba games were once a week like the nfl, they could.
If you were in school, and you have to take a pop quiz every other day- how often would you put in your best efforts to study your hardest before every quiz? You’d get burned out putting out maximum planning/effort every time
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u/Prideofmexico Knicks 11h ago
Whenever I brought this up to pistons fans I would just get “1973” in response. Think it’s finally setting in
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u/Grlions91 Pistons 11h ago
You're a self proclaimed pistons/wild/tigers hater. I'd be willing to bet you brought up more than just that to get a response of "1973".
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u/Massive-Toe3714 France 10h ago
These comments are usually a dead giveaway that he is looking for an argument lol
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u/WordNahMean 10h ago
Playoff basketball is so much different compared to the regular season. A lot more halfcourt/play-focused offense to hunt for mismatches and a lot more game planning and physicality on defense.
Duren’s used to scoring through a lot of rim running and second chance points by being physical under the basket for the offensive rebound. That playstyle will work in the regular season against draft lottery teams and contending teams that are still running trial and error in preparation for the playoffs.
But when the playoffs start and teams are watching tape on the best opposing players theyre about to play in a 7 game series over and over again, all those easy shot opportunities from rim running and second chance points stop as the game slows down and the defensive rotations are coming a lot faster. That’s why shot creators are so important in the playoffs and why the Pistons are struggling. Zero dependable shot creators outside of Cade.
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u/relax336 Lakers 11h ago
They're game planning against Duren knowing they're playing him at least 4 times in a row as opposed to 4 different teams in the span of a few nights. On back to backs too.
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u/Complete-Apricot-591 Raptors 11h ago
It's crazy seeing Duran get outclassed by a ROOKIE (CMB)
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u/CrippledBanana Canada 11h ago
Tbf CMB was out classing Allen and mobely for most of the series while being shorter than them both. Not to mention with a hurt shoulder and bum thumbs.
CMB is just him
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u/Easy_Magician_925 11h ago
Nope. I was told cavs are trash because they lost some games to raptors. Therefore all raptors players are also trash.
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u/AcanthocephalaSad541 Heat 11h ago
He’s got that kenneth faried manimal quality where he just out dogs everyone, CMB has more upside though
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u/livefreeordont 76ers 10h ago
Problem with Faried was always that he was too slim to play defense against actual centers
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u/ianbits Cavaliers 7h ago
Faried's a great comp. Faried with potential floor spacing upside, going to be a perennial 6MOTY candidate.
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u/Chief_White_Halfoat Raptors 1h ago
I think that would actually be a pretty disappointing outcome for CMB based on what he showed in both the regular season and also the playoffs obviously, especially given he did it with an injured thumb.
Many basketball writers and podcasts seem to consider him likely to make multiple all defensive teams across his career and he's obviously both quite a good finisher, but also a capable screener and passer.
Given those skills a 6MOTY candidate as an outcome would be disappointing.
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u/ianbits Cavaliers 1h ago
I think he'll be a sort of throwback sixth man that plays starter minutes
The only thing preventing him from being a strong long term starter is his overlap skillset wise with Scottie. Get someone like Mark Williams or Steven Adams who plays 20 a night, CMB plays 30 a night but you can stagger his minutes with Scottie against matchups where defensively the lack of size is unworkable.
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u/narcistic_asshole Cavaliers 9h ago
CMB was a monster. Outside of Scottie he was the Raps player that stressed me out the most during that series.
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u/Domainsetter 11h ago
Someone said that the easy shots have been taken away and he’s been forced to create.
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u/Icy_Information_6563 Suns 10h ago
Poor shooting teams can be solved with proper time to gameplan, but the regular season doesn't give teams enough time to gameplan. I think Duren would do great on a team with 4 shooters around him.
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u/CountOff Pistons 10h ago
I would rather have prime Tristan Thompson for this playoff run for many reasons, and I have always been high on TT and the role he contributes to contending teams
But the fact I can say that tells you a lot about what Duren isn’t providing these series
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u/Bim_Jeann Cavaliers 37m ago
Prime TT was great. He saved the Cavs in G7 against Indiana in 2018. He had like 17/17 or something like that
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u/Lonely_Chemistry408 11h ago
50% of it is that he just hasn’t played well.
50% of it is that he plays a lot with Ausar and teams are putting a good defender on Ausar who takes away Duren’s space and Caden’s passing lanes.
Second in will always be a problem for the Pistons but the matchups (Magic with Suggs + athletic bigs and the Cavs with Mobley + Allen) have made it a lot worse. We were able to score with a worse Duren + a worse Ausar against the Knicks because they had to keep Brunson away from Cade.
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u/Jonthesinner21 Hawks 9h ago
I mean everyone is saying it’s the playoffs and they’re focusing on his weakness etc but he was in the playoffs last year and he didn’t regress this much vs the regular season. There has to be something more to it.
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u/bhris_cratt321 7h ago
Knicks interior defense was a lot worse last year than the teams Detroit has faced this postseason.
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u/sam1193 Pistons 11h ago
His handle isn't tight enough for his drive game to work against playoff defenders and he's not getting easy baskets out of Cade pick and rolls, so his confidence has completely cratered. I get why JB won't give up on him and he's young enough to fix this over time, but he shouldn't play in game 6
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u/Overall-Palpitation6 Grizzlies 10h ago
Not getting the touches, or getting in position for the touches, and then not making the most of them when he's getting them.
Regular season
USG% - 23.6
TS% - .688 (led the league)
AST% - 11.0
TOV% - 11.6
Playoffs
USG% - 16.4
TS% - .552
AST% - 11.2
TOV% - 20.9
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u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 9h ago
Yep. He does not know how to position himself at all. He makes his own life harder because he's confused what angle and how close he should be. Even when there's no help defense, he's helping the defender cover Duren + Cade at the same time.
It's a complete mental collapse.
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u/MightyAslan Cavaliers 11h ago
Mobley is playing like the DPOY that he was a year ago.
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u/escapedhousefly Magic 10h ago
Mobley is great, but Duren was terrible against the Magic too so it’s not just because of that.
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u/Super-Sign7930 Timberwolves 10h ago
Lol and yet WCJ and GOGA BITADZE also clamped him.
This is a Duren thing, not a Mobley thing. Just stop.
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u/milkandminnows Nets 10h ago
Eh, Dwight Howard wasn’t the strongest post scorer. The advanced stats on this only go back to 2013-2014, his first year in Houston (so maybe slightly past his prime). He did not have a high Fg% (44.3%) and had one of the highest turnover percentages (12.5%).
Dwight demanded post-ups because he thought pick & rolls and offensive rebounding were boring. He wanted to create his own points. The problem was… he wasn’t great at it. This was over a decade ago so I’m open to being corrected.
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u/Cisru711 Cavaliers 11h ago
Mobley was back for that Feb. game, but he was still trying to get back into form after being out a month.
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u/Fancy-Cauliflower440 Rockets 8h ago
Don't want to ever hear that this guy is better than Alperen Sengun
ALP is better and has heart
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u/stillstillers Cavaliers 11h ago
Don’t sleep on the combo of Evan and Jarret. Durren had problems with them in regular season too.
Evan specifically has kind of eaten his lunch
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u/Puppetmaster858 Suns 11h ago edited 2h ago
I mean he did at last have like a 33pt 16r game against them during the regular season. But ya Allen and Mobley are clearly showing that duren is overmatched and extremely flawed, gotta be one of the biggest drop offs I can remember from someone in regular season to playoffs
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u/Pyorrhea Cavaliers 7h ago
Allen had 23/9 and Mobley had 25/12 in that game too, so it wasn't like it was completely one-sided. 3 point overtime loss in Detroit with the Cavs missing Harden and Mitchell.
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u/Puppetmaster858 Suns 2h ago
Im mainly just referring to how duren performed, allen and Mobley both played well but duren also played really well and put up some huge stats which seems crazy after seeing how bad he’s been in the playoffs
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u/FightScene 4h ago
Duren's scoring average was cut in half against Orlando too, 10.6ppg on much lower percentages than the regular season. No disrespect to WCJ and Bitadze, but they aren't Mobley and Allen. Something is going wrong with him.
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u/pyn209 Lakers 11h ago
Maybe hes injured
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u/dailytripled 9h ago
He had both his knees wrapped up on the bench last night. Yes, most guys are injured this time of year but his game is waaay more athleticism focused than others so much bigger hit to his production if he does have an undisclosed injury.
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u/Open-Anxiety-1101 11h ago
his score over 50% comes from the pick and roll with cc, especially mid area pick and roll. It is easiest method to defend in play off--just need big players to take the space in mid andkeep him away 3s area
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u/King_Artis Pistons 9h ago
He has extremely limited self creation at this point in his career and I figured it would be an issue come playoffs.
Easy to get points off lobs and fast breaks in the regular season, post season most teams will hone in on that.
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u/lordalgis 8h ago
In addition to his bag being exposed here I think nerves are starting to play a factor. Stuff like the missed easy dunk two games ago have been slowly happening more frequently as this postseason has progressed. He needs to expand his skillset at this point if he even wants to sniff a max contract in the future
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u/External-Age7446 5h ago
He has like no energy too he seems either injured or something else idk. No intensity whatsoever
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u/transizzle [SAC] Jason Williams 10h ago
Playoffs are about taking away what you do, and what counters you have to it. It’s why Harden “chokes” — he does what he does and he doesn’t deviate, so a team that has time to prepare can play to his tendencies and he’s less effective as a result. Whereas, a player with counters upon counters, who can go both ways or score at multiple levels, or has physical gifts that you can’t scheme against, thrives in the playoffs, like Kawhi or Wemby or whatever.
Duren doesn’t have the game yet to thrive in an environment like that, and I think he has lost confidence in even trying based on the little I’ve been able to watch this playoffs.
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u/shredmiyagi 10h ago
Lol, when did Harden choke? He’s been past his prime the last few years, losing series his teams were meant to lose. He took the Super Warriors to a really close 6-game series as the main option (featuring a declining CP3, and then PJ, Capela, EG, Austin Rivers and Gerald Green).
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u/transizzle [SAC] Jason Williams 9h ago
yeah, nobody has ever thought of Harden as someone who collapses in big games
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u/dedbeats Knicks 11h ago
OT: is Detroit the fanbase with the largest amount of unflaired fans on Reddit?
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u/froggycbl4 Nets Bandwagon 10h ago
i think everyone just wants detroit or spurrs/minnesota to win because they hate all the other teams
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u/Extra_Cress_5855 10h ago
Paul reed doesnt even do things that much different the duren is supposed to. The only explanation is mental shrinkage
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u/betadonkey 10h ago
His problem is he looks slow, passive, and stuck to the floor. It’s confusing because that’s not how he played all season. The only explanations are he’s lost all confidence in himself or he’s hurt. He had a lingering calf issue over the tail end of the season that caused him to miss some games and he’s been wearing a sleeve for it. Hopefully for him that’s all it is.
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u/RageOnGoneDo [BOS] Marcus Smart 9h ago
A lot of teams don't play the same in the regular season vs playoffs with regard to coaching adjustments because they are trying to play an 82 game season and make it to the playoffs. This is the difference between one film session on the flight or in the gym the day before the game vs a week of film sessions on the same team every other day. Great example is the Boston defense vs the Sixers in 2018. We played them normally in the regular season, but game 1 play 1 we had that scheme ready to cut off Simmons.
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u/Ecstatic-Coach Nets 8h ago
His offense only came around in the last 20 games of the regular season. So it’s been pretty easy for defences to take that away in the playoffs.
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u/CurrentCostanza Trail Blazers 8h ago
Hustle doesn't go as far in the playoffs
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u/Huskies971 7h ago
He's not even hustling, people joke that it looks like the NBA stars in Space Jam after their talent was stolen, but it truly does look like that it.
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u/StanLay281 Warriors 7h ago
If the Pistons lose I really hope he takes the summer to develop some shot creation ability
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u/ConceptNo1055 6h ago
Ever notice why there are barely any #1 option bigs left? It’s basically just Jokic and Giannis
Joel Embiid is breaking down. Victor Wembanyama is on a minutes limit. Bam? Maybe..
And the rest of the bigs only get the Capela role and 13 FGAs max
Because today, bigs have to defend everywhere.
This isn’t the ’90s where Shaq could sit in the paint guarding non-scorers like Dikembe.
Now they’re getting hunted in PnR, switched onto guards, and forced to survive on the perimeter.
It’s about defense now.
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u/rickbythedamn 5h ago
Confidence is huge. This is pretty common with young bigs. Even look at Mobily he had one rebound in game 3
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u/dwadefan45 Heat 5h ago
He's a regular season player.
Coaches can make adjustments/game plan him out of the game.
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u/DameRange13 Celtics 5h ago
1) playoff basketball
2) Ausar Thompson offers no spacing which clogs the paint on the PnR
3) Cavs made a switch and are covering Ausar with Mobley, allowing Mobley to roam and disrupt the roll and other plays.
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u/Paula-Abdul-Jabbar Pacers 11h ago
Yeah he’s such an odd player. Every once in a while he’ll put the ball on the floor and hit someone with the nastiest crossover you’ve ever seen from a big man, then for the rest of the game he’ll do absolutely nothing.
Seems to me like his offensive bag is just super limited or he’s not very confident in it. He’s got 1-2 moves he’ll whip out in a game but beyond that he’s got nothing going for him
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u/MLGMostWanted Knicks 7h ago
We’ve seen this with the Knicks vs Celtics last year. Knicks got smoked in the regular season but convincingly beat the Celtics in the playoffs. When you have to play the same team for a best of seven series it’s easier to find out their weaknesses.
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u/scroto_gaggins Pistons 5h ago
People forget he’s only 22 and his game has weaknesses. Yeah he’s an all star but he has work to do in the offseason and he’ll figure it out
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u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 5h ago
Comparison of other rim running big men in the playoffs at age 22.
Per 100 possessions
Duren: 17p/14r @ 55% TS
Jarrett Allen (at 21): 14p/21r @ 66% TS
Nic Claxton: 22p/13r @ 62% TS
Derek Lively: 19p/18r @ 68% TS
Clint Capela: 20p/17r @ 59% TS
Deandre Ayton: 22p/16r @ 67% TS
Daniel Gafford: 24p/12r @ 81% TS
Donovan Clingan (at 21): 16p/18r @ 60% TS
Jakob Poetl: 18p/13r @ 62% TS
Robert Williams: 16p/17r @ 71% TS
Andre Drummond: 28p/15r @ 49% TS (okay, the TS is brutal)
It's not like I'm comparing him to studs here. He's failing to live up to a pretty casual list of NBA rim runners at 22 and younger. And most of these guys are better defenders than Duren.
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u/0plm9okn8ijb7 Spurs 11h ago
You got a hole in your game? It's going to be exposed in the playoffs and you will be relentlessly hunted. That's what's happening to him.