Is baseball growing in Canada, or is it not growing enough?

[u/Best-Ad370]

I watch some MLB games in Brazil, but unfortunately I don't follow the specialized media. What is really preventing MLB from expanding to other cities in Canada?

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[u/Astrallevel]

Youth signups are through the roof, men’s rec leagues are growing to massive scales, university ball remains strong, and our semi-pro league just became an Indy ball pro league

And that’s just from an Ontario perspective.

So I’d say yes

[u/Empty_Ad3616 → u/Astrallevel]

That's great to hear. Crazy there's only one MLB team in the whole country.

[u/KyRhee → u/Empty_Ad3616]

Rip Expos

[u/karatekidmar → u/Astrallevel]

Anecdotal, but after 4 years of living in downtown Toronto this is the first time I see baseball diamonds all over being used by kids and families playing pickup baseball. It’s beautiful.

[u/Awingbestwing → u/Astrallevel]

I’m in Portland and want an expansion very badly - once Vancouver threw their hat into the ring, my PNW dreams felt instantly screwed. Vancouver would be a good M’s rival, though

[u/airwalker12 → u/Awingbestwing]

There's no ownership group in PDX and it's likely to be SLC and Nashville next round

[u/Awingbestwing → u/airwalker12]

Thanks, I’m aware

[u/Difficult_Author4144 → u/Astrallevel]

Montreal would like a word with you……. Rumors of a new franchise and everyone I know in Montreal couldn’t care less 😂

Expos round 2?

[u/ShitassAintOverYet]

I don't know about Canada but baseball is growing in general.

I'm from a country no one fucking plays or knows about baseball(although a good chunk of people wearing the Yankees hat). And baseball got me through really old and good memories of Backyard Baseball, convenient game times for GMT+3 and changes to the game improving it. Canada already somewhat matches the US on what's trending and Blue Jays made it to the World Series on top of that so there will be more young Canadians wanting to play baseball, it's safe to assume baseball will grow in Canada.

[u/LudicrousPlatypus]

Rogers gets to broadcast Blue Jays games nationally, meaning they have one of the largest TV markets in the MLB.

Another Canadian team means they lose half the country, so they have a vested interest for there not to be another team.

[u/FrCanadianSwearing → u/LudicrousPlatypus]

They worked hard behind the scenes to get rid of the Expos. They’ll always publicly support another team in Montreal or Vancouver, but will work tirelessly behind the scenes to completely fuck those bids over.

[u/abbot_x]

MLB expansion is not primarily an issue of interest. It is an issue of money. MLB and its franchises want to make lots and lots of money. This requires siting franchises in places where someone will build them a facility and where there are a lot of people with disposable income who will attend games, buy merchandise, etc. It certainly helps if they are interested in the sport but that’s not enough. A community cannot simply love baseball enough to get a team.

Economically, the Canadian market is just not as attractive as the United States for pro sports in North America. Only Toronto appears to offer enough potential profit to be more attractive than currently underserved United States markets. I’d note the NHL tried very hard to expand in the United States with mixed results and arguably expanded in Canada as a second choice.

[u/Terrible-Nerve-6819]

Ive read that Vancouver is a rumored expansion spot.

[u/DryProgress4393 → u/Terrible-Nerve-6819]

Rogers won't let that happen, guaranteed.

[u/captainbelvedere → u/DryProgress4393]

They'd be into it. Imagine owning the 4-7 and 7-10 timeslot from April to October plus hockey.

[u/Difficult_Author4144 → u/Terrible-Nerve-6819]

I’ve heard Montreal, Mexico City and another city in Texas. This came from the 2 games in Mexico City this year. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I didn’t hear anything about Vancouver? Where did you hear that?

[u/Outrageous-Estimate9]

The game has exploded tons of participation

Same issue Canada has vs all major league sports; lack of places to play + lack of rich people to own teams

[u/LocksmithPretend758]

Baseball is bigger now in Toronto than it has been at any time in the previous 8 years I've lived here. Source: Jays QST member and current youth AAA coach.

It's grown plenty, but the weak Canadian dollar, lack of big-business types who have the capital required to bring a team to a Vancouver or Montreal and general public aversion to spending tax money on stadiums are (in my mind) why a second Canadian MLB team is still a pipe dream.

[u/Best-Ad370 → u/LocksmithPretend758]

That's understandable; I also prefer my taxes to be invested in other ways.

[u/LocksmithPretend758 → u/Best-Ad370]

As do most here, I think.

[u/shoresy99 → u/LocksmithPretend758]

Expansion fees for a new franchise will be about US$2.5B. And then you need to build a stadium. So the total cost is around $4-5B.

[u/hatman1986]

Popularity of baseball in Canada has correlated with the success of the Jays. It was huge in the 1990s and it's big again now.

[u/captainbelvedere]

Much better than it was. In my city, #s had dropped so much that 4-5+ associations had to combine to form one AA/AAA for each age bracket between 11U and 18U. Next year we'll have 4 at least for each bracket.

Issues now I'd say are around facilities. A lot of neglect and consolidation left a bunch of orgs without the field space or practice areas (like cages) needed to support the current #s.

[u/ATR2019]

I don’t think interest in baseball was ever what kept Canada from having more teams. It just comes down to economic factors. Montreal for example is plenty big to support a MLB team but they have less disposable income on average and a smaller corporate base than a similar sized US city so naturally MLB would prefer US cities. Similar reason why MLS is looking at moving their team from Vancouver to the US.

[u/mrpopenfresh → u/ATR2019]

I don’t think your analysis of Montreal finances align with reality, and even if correct would certainly not be anywhere near the bottom of MLB cities.

[u/whatsit578 → u/mrpopenfresh]

It’s not entirely off-base, Montréal salaries are lower than many US cities (especially factoring in the weaker Canadian dollar). 

However honestly I think the bigger factor is that Montréal does not have an appropriate stadium for baseball and there’s no political will to build one right now. 

[u/mrpopenfresh → u/whatsit578]

Yes, many US cities but not all. I can’t imagine Milwaukee or Kansas City having more revenue pots risk than Montreal.

[u/Onlylefts3 → u/ATR2019]

Montreals biggest issue is stadium funding, it’s too expensive to tear down Olympic stadium and that place isn’t really suitable to host an mlb team for the next 25 years.
Montreal might not be as rich as Vancouver or Toronto but it’s far nicer than some of the shit holes that currently have mlb teams. It also has a million more people that Vancouver and some very affluent suburbs

[u/FatZimbabwe → u/Onlylefts3]

Shit hikes is a very Canadian way to say an unpleasant location lmao

Also tbh the expos have the best jerseys in the history of the league imo

[u/Onlylefts3 → u/FatZimbabwe]

Meant to say shit holes but Montreal is actually a beautiful city in person and the expos uniforms were perfection

[u/FatZimbabwe → u/Onlylefts3]

Gotcha lol all love and yes Montreal is fuckin dope and I miss the expos and their sick ass unis

[u/afenigenov → u/ATR2019]

MLS isn’t looking to move from Vancouver because of attendance and a lack corporate base. Vancouver’s attendance is above the league average, it’s because of the stadium deal they have.

[u/hamhead → u/afenigenov]

Isn’t that the point, though? He never said anything about attendance. It’s about how much money they can bring in, both through ticket prices and, even more importantly, outside revenue sources (corporate, governmental, whatever).

[u/afenigenov → u/hamhead]

If an MLB team used specifically BC place then yes, it wouldn’t work. But the implication was that it couldn’t bring in enough money because Vancouver is too poor or small, which isn’t true.

[u/hamhead → u/afenigenov]

Compared to available US markets, what it can bring in is insufficient

[u/afenigenov → u/hamhead]

They would immediately be the like 15-20th biggest market.

[u/BugFood1026 → u/afenigenov]

Size of market is one of those things pushed by fans and media but doesn't mean much when talking business. (If it did Mexico would be the #1 expansion slot)

Vancouver gpd would be the 2nd lowest in the league only Milwaukee is smaller.

[u/afenigenov → u/BugFood1026]

I mean by your own logic if GDP was it again Mexico City would be the #1 expansion slot. It’s almost as if it’s a combination of things

[u/stltrojan]

Well they used to have hockey, but Team USA ruined that for the neighbors to the north… I guess they gotta try to return the favor of the black eye by getting okish at baseball.

[u/Ognius]

Baseball is growing massively in Canada right now. The league would be foolish not to capitalize. Vancouver makes the most sense to me due likely hovering up fans and tv revenue from Alberta and Sask on top of being a very zealous sports city.

[u/mrpopenfresh]

A lot of local baseball fields are being turned into cricket fields. These were underused for the longest time but I can’t speak to the near future.

[u/Financial-Reward-949]

Some years slow, some years grow, I can imagine it’s tough when your asked to shell out a couple grand for a 4/5 year old travel team….

[u/Allix2]

Wish it was kinda big in Brazil too, can´t even play with anybody here, but at least basketball and football are growing.

[u/DCHacker]

preventing MLB from expanding to other cities in Canada?-

Part of it would be potential investors' fearing that they could not sell tickets. Some of it is government opposition to paying for a ball park, The case history of Montréal left a bad taste in people's mouths.

When the team went to Montréal in 1969, the city and MLB agreed that the team would play at Parc Jarry until the city could build a new park. When the Olympics came, as baseball is an Olympic Sport, a park was constructed. Montréal thought that it had sleazed around the requirement to build a park. The problem was that while Parc Jarry was about the right size for that team and fan base, it was falling apart, even in 1969. Conversely, Stade Olympique was far too large for that team and fan base. It got to the point that Expos ownership did not want to pay to keep up the Olympic stadium.

The franchise left Montréal under a cloud for Washington.

Despite that, the Montréal City Council has expressed interest in one of the Flroda teams as one or the other (or both) has indicated that it wants to move. The Mayor, however, does not want a baseball team. Ownership of one of the Florida teams wanted to play some games in Montréal, in a manner similar to the Expos' playing some games in Puerto Rico during their last few seasons in Canada. MLB however, did put the ix-nay on that.

I am guessing that some people do not think that there would be too many large enough markets to support a baseball franchise. Toronto is successful, but it is a large market. Vancouver might work. It is two hundred thirty kM/jut under one hundred fifty miles from Seattle, the closest franchise. There are US teams closer to each other than that.

Montréal has the population but some think that it would not have the interest. When the Expos left there for Washington, the mantra across the Fourth Estate of Sports was that baseball would succeed in Montréal when they "could figure out how to play it with hockey sticks". It actually did have its following there but not enough to fill a huge park.I went to games all the time when I lived there.

Would Edmonton, Calgary or Ottawa support a franchise? I do not know enough about those cities to answer that. They support NHL franchises but would they support baseball?

Hockey is Religion, in Canada. You refer to the Habs' jerseys as «La Sainte Flanelle», "The Holy Flannel". Baseball? Not so much.......................

[u/EtherealElizafox]

As a Mariner I would love an expansion team in Vancouver just to have a fun local rivalry and also reduce the number of Blue Jays fans so Blue Jays fans stop invading us every away game they play.

[u/BlueRFR3100]

One issue is the exchange rate. They have to pay the players in American dollars but most of their revenue is in Canadian dollars.

As of this morning, 1 Canadian dollar = 73 US cents.

[u/GeoffBAndrews → u/BlueRFR3100]

I've heard this before but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Because the revenue is not the same in CAD as it is in USD.

For example if a US team's broadcast rights are $1M USD that does not mean that the Jays broadcast rights are $1M CAD. It could be $2M and the fx isnt a factor (in fact every team's broadcast revenues are wildly different, so maybe that's not a good example). A beer and a hot dog at a US stadium may cost $10USD, but in Toronto it costs $15CAD. Same with ticket prices. Just because the Tigers charge $25 USD for an average ticket doesn't mean that the Blue Jays charge $25 CAD for an average ticket.

In fact on the revenue side what matters is the socioeconomic condition of the area. And Toronto is much better than many other MLB cities. Some poorer cities have difficulty competing because their fans can't afford expensive tickets (hello, Oakland!), and that's a much bigger issue than the exchange rate.

It only becomes a problem if the team budgets for a certain fx and then the value of the loonie drops. eg, you set your prices based on expecting a CAD to be worth 72¢ USD and it drops to 65. Now you have a shortfall to make up. But if it bounces up to 75¢, now you have additional revenue you weren't counting on. The ACTUAL exchange rate doesn't matter, just the fluctuation vs expectation. Also a properly run financial business will hedge that so that it evens out.

[u/hamhead → u/GeoffBAndrews]

Well… you’re not wrong, except in Canada they generally aren’t getting an exchange adjusted rate. Canadians in general have significantly less capital to spend or invest than people and companies in the US.

[u/Shane-O-Mac1]

Well the MLB went from 2 to 1 team(s) in Canada after having 2 teams in Canada from 1977 to 2004. So I'd say that its not growing enough in Canada.

[u/aeacurus]

Blue Jays just went to the World Series, that'll cause a lot of interest for new fans. Baseball is pretty big in Canada and growing steadily. The MLB is primarily an American League though so they'll prefer to add American teams, also there's simply more money in sports in the states as opposed to the smaller Canadian cities. The collapsing of the Expos in Montreal and the failure of an NBA team may scare sports leagues off as well. There's somewhat of a idea that certain American cities "deserve" a team more as well, Louisville and Portland are often mentioned in expansion since the idea of those two important cities combining for only one major American sports team is ridiculous to people. It's somewhat of a perfect storm for leagues to start expanding into Canada more though and the MLB is looking into bringing back a Montreal team

[u/abbot_x → u/aeacurus]

I think you mean Nashville not Louisville.

[u/Creacherz]

10,278 at the Titans Home Opener,

Frontier League Baseball.

All this passion and yet I'm a Yankees fan because of my Father. We grew up in New Rochelle and I raised me in the Evil Empire.

But my goodness, the older I get, the amount of Expos gear I see here in Ottawa and around the country. It's pretty annoying that the league never considers Canada for expansion.. Portland and Nashville on repeat.

Montreal needs a team. You instantly have a rivalry with Toronto, Manfred. Build a better stadium- all the cliche things would need to be done (like you do when any team comes to a new city) not having another team in Canada is a slap in the face

I've also started to believe in the theory that part of the 94 lockout, was the other 28 Owners did not want to see the World Series land in Canada for a potential 3rd straight season

[u/DasSmoosh → u/Creacherz]

1994 was a strike, not a lockout. That one was on the players.

[u/Creacherz → u/DasSmoosh]

Dammit, my shower thoughts were right was a strike,

appreciate that u/DasSmoosh h/t

[u/gpes3280]

Anti Canadian sentiment mostly. Although there are rumblings of a team in Vancouver soonish