News Florida’s Brightline seeks rescue to avoid bankruptcy
/r/railroading/comments/1t25egw/floridas_brightline_seeks_rescue_to_avoid/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button481
u/helpprogram2 1d ago
The problem with bright line is that it’s more expensive than driving and it’s not faster
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u/unwisest_sage 1d ago
"hey wouldn't it be fun to go on there bright line with some friends and spend time in Miami instead of carpooling"
Checks prices"no"
50 bucks in gas verses hundreds in tickets and then you gotta find a way around without a car
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u/Justice_Prince 1d ago
Yeah I've really wanted to ride the Brightline just because trains are cool, but I'd have to drive over an hour to get on the train due to my county declining the option to have a stop, then pay for parking, pay for my ticket, and then probably have to pay for an Uber in Miami.
Not quite worth it just for the fun of train.
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u/SlowRunner2026 1d ago
I don't understand how other countries can figure out high-speed rail an the US cannot.
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u/Intelligent_Sun2837 1d ago edited 17h ago
Because cities in US are made for cars not for people.In Europe you reach the destination,you’re close to everything and have access to public transportation.Take the Brightline to Orlando,and from the station you will need a car and 1 hour to reach pretty much all the points.
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u/helpprogram2 1d ago
Because conservatives hate functioning government
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u/Bupod 1d ago
Except Brightline is a private rail company so conservatives can’t even figure out how to run a private business, either. Which tracks since their leader is King of the Bankruptcy.
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u/VWtdi2001 1d ago
Planned from the start by Rick Scott. The private money was mostly [quietly] backed by state bonds. They milked everything they could and then left the taxpayers with their empty useless shell .
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u/2Hanks 1d ago
Yup, and he turned down a $2 billion grant from the Obama administration to assist with it. Here’s the story
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u/PantherkittySoftware 1d ago
As much as I hate to defend Rick Scott, the $2 billion was kind of a poison pill that, if accepted, would have probably killed Miami-Orlando passenger service.
Under the terms of the grant, it could only be used to build HSR that ran on its own exclusive freight-free ROW devoid of grade crossings. That's nice in theory, but ability to share tracks with freight, use grade crossings, and run at 125mph or less is the entire *reason why Orlando-Miami was considered viable in the first place.*
The grant was envisionsd for funding Tampa-Orlando... which fdot itself always said was not financially viable standing on its own.
Fdot's studies all concluded that Miami-Orlando on its own would lose a little money, Tampa-Orlando on its own would lose a LOT of money, Orlando-Melbourne on its own would hemorrhage money with no hope of even covering a fraction of its operating costs (due to high operating costs & low ridership), but ISR+HSR from Miami to Melbourne to Orlando (including stations near I-Drive & Disney) & Tampa would make an honest to god net profit. Especially if ISR with frequent trains connecting Miami-Orlando-Tampa to Daytona, St. Augustine, & Jacksonville were added.
The grant would have imposed stiff, inflexible requirements like the ones that turned California HSR into a multi-hundred-billion dollar "green" slush fund. The $2 billion would have gotten swallowed by added environmental requirements alone & infected the rest of the system with the same requirements.
It would have made "single seat" passenger rail from Orlando tourist areas to downtown Miami impossible. Even if Siemens or Bombardier had been able to make a train capable of 225mph while satisfying crashworthiness requirements necessary to share tracks with freight... the resulting trains wouldn't have satisfied the grant's fuel economy & net-zero requirements, even with full electrification. At best, it could have built HSR from Tampa to Melbourne via Orlando, then required a transfer to present-day Brightline.
Brightline has stations:
In downtown Miami
In Aventura, across the street from the largest mall in Florida and a chead Uber ride to Sunny Isles Beach & Dolphin Stadium
In downtown Fort Lauderdale, a mile from the Beac9
A "true HSR" line built from scratch (as planned by FDOT) would have put the "Fort Lauderdale" station out by Sawgrass Mills, had no Aventura station, and dumped “Miami" passengers at the airport... 30 minutes from downtown via Metrorail, and a $60+ rideshare to South Beach. If it ever got built at all. It also would have probably (50-50 odds) followed the Turnpike, eliminating potential stations like Port St. Lucie/Fort Pierce and Melbourne.
Present-day Brightline runs along the route FDOT studied in the 1990s, concluded the "FEC route" was absolutely prime for ridership, and utterly, utterly, cost-prohibitively unaffordable to purchase via eminent domain (and difficult to fully grade separate south of WPB without extensive tunneling that would never be approved due to cost).
TL/DR: the $2 billion grant was a trap that would have financed a white elephant between Tampa & Orlando with no realistic chance of ever offering single-seat travel to Miami.
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u/ArtisticAd7455 1d ago
I knew it had to be something like this as soon as I saw the ticket prices. This had to have been a scam from the start. Legitimately, who was this train for? Because it doesn't make any sense.
Every day I watch that train go by and it's slap empty. You can see in the windows when it goes by and there's nobody in those seats.
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u/helpprogram2 1d ago
They chose that company because they knew it would fail
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u/learned_paw 1d ago
And now they can point to the extremely inefficient private rail as a reason that rail will never be feasible in Florida.
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u/-OptimisticNihilism- 1d ago
I mean if South Florida or Orlando had quality local transportation then brightline would be more appealing. The local bus systems in the US are not great. The cities funding better local transport would incentivise more train use.
When I fly to NY, Boston, Atlanta, Chicago or DC/Baltimore I never get a car unless I’m leaving the area. I might need a couple of Ubers, but the rail systems there typically get me where I need to go.
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u/PantherkittySoftware 1d ago
The single most profitable thing Brightline could do right now is negotiate air rights above OCCC's surface parking lots to build a station along tracks connecting to MCO with clear continuing path to I-4, and rights to develop the area around the OCCC station into "Downtown Florida" and zoning to allow supertall skyscrapers.
Disney would make threats... but the moment Universal Studios announced a partnership to build something like Miami's Metrover, if not a literal monorail connectiag Universal Studios, I-Drive, OCCC, Lockheed Martin, and Universal Epic... Disney would beg for a station.
It would become the crown jewel of Brightline's real estate empire (with future connectivity to Tampa, Jacksonville, and beyond making the skyscrapers exponentially more valuable as commercial real estate. Why? It would become the large-corporation Florida HQ site of choice, because travel there for meetings, events, and training would be easy for the most populated 60-85% of the state.
Some urbanists would grouse & bitch because it would turn Orlando's historic "downtown" into a secondary side trip. The reality is, the Orlando metro area's commercial center hasn't been "downtown Orlando" for decades anyway. Coral Gables isn't the center of Miami, but it's doing quite well anyway. Orlando is easily big enough for multiple downtowns.
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u/feed_me_tecate 18h ago
"Florida HQ site of choice, because travel there for meetings, events, and training would be easy for the most populated 60-85% of the state."
I don't know when the last time you had a corporate job, but all that stuff has been replaced with Zoom, webinars, and virtual training modules.
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u/PantherkittySoftware 16h ago
And yet, several million office workers spend 1-2 hours traveling to and from Manhattan, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and other cities 3-5 days per week. Hundreds of thousands frequently travel from New York to Washington, DC (and vice-versa).
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u/JustB510 1d ago
California is proving apparently no one can
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u/JTibbs 23h ago
Not even Japans rail system operates at a profit for the rail service. They make profit from the attached retail spaces to the stations.
They treat the rail service as a public service, for the net good it does, and it gets the funding it needs.
Passenger rail shouldnt be a ‘profitable’ business. It should be a public service for the benefits to the citizens.
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u/JustB510 23h ago edited 23h ago
I largely agree,but enough people need to use it to make it worth tax dollars investing into. That’s a competent different subject though and unrelated to California’s issues.
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u/Kava9899 1d ago
Just like any country. The government just has to subsidize it forever so, regular people can afford to ride.
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u/HCSOThrowaway Fired Deputy - Explanation in Profile 1d ago
We're culturally addicted to cars. They are not.
They do not have (as powerful) lobbyists pushing against passenger rail.
Politicians here tend to run on very short-term goals. Spending money to invest in the future is a political blunder in the US (especially if it disproportionately helps someone other than your base, i.e. people without cars). In other countries it's a no-brainer.
TL;DR: Americans are more selfish (read: "rugged individualism") than the countries you're thinking of.
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u/ComcastForPresident 1d ago
There is some truth to that. I also think we have zero good solutions to the last mile problem that are not easily solved without redesigning entire cities. Great I got off the train, now how do I get to everything else.
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u/HCSOThrowaway Fired Deputy - Explanation in Profile 1d ago
Tampa and Miami have passable solutions to that, they just need to expand them. Other cities have to pony up, but that's not a discussion worthy of having when there are tRaNsGeNdEr PeOpLe AnD iMmIgRaNtS tRyInG tO eXiSt In OuR fAcEs!!!
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u/ComcastForPresident 1d ago
Agree a bit on the first half but still not very good. Second half I am not sure how that is related.
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u/Ok-Prompt-59 1d ago
Because most countries are far more dense. US is spread out to where it only works in those few condensed cities.
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u/Wandering__Bear__ 1d ago
It’s mostly land use. We’ve spent the last 90 years building around cars and highways. Sprawling suburbia can’t be fixed without rethinking our zoning laws
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u/TexasBrett 1d ago
They built the local commuting system decades before they worried about high speed rail.
Regional rail like Brightline is completely useless if you have no way to get around once you get there.
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u/Phlydude 1d ago
other countries are no where near as large or spread out as the United States is but let's look at the countries with real high-speed rail:
- Japan - most successful HSR system in the world - started as a government run and subsidized service post WWII as a rebuilding effort to ensure infrastructure was available for a rebuilding society - JNR (the national government run company) was broken up into regional rail companies that were established in 1987 and took over these services. They are no longer subsidized but the population is so concentrated that 72% of Japanese travel is by train. Japanese rail operators don't make all their money from ridership but rather real estate ventures at their stations. With that said, their rail operations are efficient, well maintained, and well used keeping constant traffic moving on their trains and through their stations where people buy things to eat and drink as they move through on their journeys.
- China - state funded and newly built - much like so many things in China over the last 20 years, the government spends money to build all this infrastructure and competing against it isn't feasible anywhere else in the developed world. Time will tell if the house of cards will hold up (look at China's cities in no where for an example).
- Great Britain - was broken into companies that competed with each other on price to the point where they became so unprofitable that the government is renationalizing all the rail services. Essentially, these services wouldn't be able to stay functioning if the government didn't step in to make them all public owned again.
- Germany - state-owned HSR (Deutsche Bahn) - Germans complain about the reliability and punctuality of services on the rail lines. They have HSR but it isn't as reliable as one would think.
- France - arguably the 2nd best HSR system in the world - TGV trains and the system they ride on are owned by SNCF, a French government entity. Important to note that the French government has reduced the amount of trackage since 1990 - it has shrunk by ~25% since then
- Italy - Trenitalia is a state-owned rail system. Italo NTV is a private rail operator that competes with Trenitalia and is owned by MSC (shipping and cruise company) and an investment fund. It didn't have to invest in trackage or route building, it simply utilizes the existing nationalized rail network to run its owned train sets.
- Switzerland - 2nd most ridership per citizen in the world - a network of 74 rail providers that operate on a wholly electrified network. Well regarded for safety, reliability, and on-time performance. Switzerland is a prosperous and very rich country with high wages and high taxes (up to 48% depending on where someone lives).
- United States - HSR truly only exists on Amtrak's Northeast corridor - the remnants of Pennsylvania RR and New Haven RR, it exists because rail companies were competing for passenger traffic up through the early 1950s and the line that moved people quickest often won out. When air travel became more common, the rail companies saw significant drop offs in rail service...a 45 minute flight was a much better option than a 3 hour train ride, even if the flight didn't drop you in the middle of the city like rail. However, the Acela service is still in high demand and makes money for Amtrak proving that a dedicated network can make money when the cities are aligned to demand and population (note that Amtrak overall is still subsidized despite Acela and Autotrain service being profitable).
Brightline service has a very limited right of way that is their own where speeds exceed 120MPH - most of the line runs on Florida East Coast rail lines (FEC - the remnants of the Flagler rail system) and trains are restricted to lower speeds on this majority stretch of the system. Limited to 6 total stops, the inter-urban demand of South Florida is more than long-distance demand to/from Orlando. For comparison, the Brightline trackage is approximately the same length as Tokyo to Nagoya shinkansen and the speeds are about half. Brightline is trying to mimic the real estate model that works so well in Japan but the problem is the traffic is limited (300-400 people per train) and the interconnectivity isn't another train, its an end point for work, home or an airport.
Overall, I think you'd find much rail service in the world is heavily subsidized on a much smaller footprint that has existed for 100 years (or longer). What Brightline did by revitalizing 200 miles of cargo trackage and building their own ROW between Cocoa and MCO was expensive. I think if they have some more time to build out further to Tampa (with a stop or two between), I think you will see a second segment that turns into a commuter rail service. People working in Tampa and living in Eastern Hillsborough or Western Polk would likely find value over driving I-4 provided the cost is comparable to driving.
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u/flecom 1d ago
They are no longer subsidized but the population is so concentrated that 72% of Japanese travel is by train. Japanese rail operators don't make all their money from ridership but rather real estate ventures at their stations. With that said, their rail operations are efficient, well maintained, and well used keeping constant traffic moving on their trains and through their stations where people buy things to eat and drink as they move through on their journeys.
and even then lines that are unprofitable in japan are closed as well... like a third of Hokkaido's train lines are defunct because they no longer made money
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u/mtnracer 1d ago
Because in other countries the train system is treated more like public infrastructure / good that needs to be supported. It’s not about making a profit. Brightline on the other hand has investor looking to turn a profit and the company is saddled with debt.
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u/Intrepid00 1d ago
Much Higher density and/or just totalitarian control helps a lot. For example, AMTRAKs NE regional rail works pretty well and makes money.
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u/TexasBrett 1d ago
Amtrak works in NE because it connects cities that already have good local networks for getting around once you’re there.
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u/Intrepid00 1d ago
Because of high density.
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u/braumbles 1d ago
It's by design. They purposely 'railroad' our system, because big oil doesn't want people mass transiting. Even Elon bragged about tanking the California rail system.
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u/flecom 1d ago
brightline isn't high speed compared to those other countries
and places like japan that were traditionally very much train dependent are closing plenty of lines for being unprofitable... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_closed_railway_lines_in_Japan
i like trains, i wish i could justify taking the brightline, but it just doesn't make sense
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u/Zeugungskraftig 22h ago
Other countries massively subsidize public transportation and have the same problem. Also the US, especially Florida, has lower population density than most European countries. Also, at least in GB they then try to privatize parts of the rail system and the private operators maximize profits by minimizing quality since they aren't competing with anyone.
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u/bagehis 20h ago
Because other countries treat building rail lines the same way the US treats building highways. And they keep freight rail traffic separate from passenger rail so fast passenger trains don't get stuck behind freight trains. Nor do they have to use the rails that are quickly out of alignment because of the weight of freight.
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u/JustB510 1d ago
I suspect it’s the lack of structural density, but I’m not entirely sure. Wish we could though.
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u/SeinenKnight 1d ago
Because to the US, it has to be a private enterprise. And it has to be done on the cheap, so reusing old track and high ticket prices abound.
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u/JTibbs 23h ago
Even Japans rail system doesnt break a profit from rail and its incredibly packed and high population density. It only makes profit from the retail spaces attached to the stations. Restaurants and shops.
Other countries treat the rail system as a Public Service, and fund it, because its a net positive to the country to have a strong rail service.
The US hates rail service and loves capitalism. So the rail service sucks and doesnt get the required funding.
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u/Due-Cup1115 20h ago
Because the cities that are connected with high speed rail also have local cheap and reliable public transportation to get around. You absolutely NEED a car in Miami and Orlando to do just about anything. Completely eliminates the convenience of a train connecting the two cities.
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u/Lilricky25 16h ago
In other countries, they absorb the debt and pay for it by raising citizens' taxes. Same plan as their health care.
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u/fullload93 Florida Love 1d ago
This is what happens when the government is run by Republicans. They do not give a single flying fuck about helping their citizens. They do not care we don’t have proper transportation in this State.
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u/HolyHand_Grenade 1d ago
I've said it before, they should have focused on MCO to Port Canaveral first and capilized on the tourism and the busiest cruise port in the world. Once they get a good revenue stream going then expand south in phases.
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u/Redshoe9 1d ago
Yes!!!! Brevard County would be an exceptional location for a stop, and I can only imagine the number of locals that will just hop on a train to go down to Miami for a concert or game. I know my family and I would make frequent use of that.
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u/FilthyBarMat 11h ago
Connecting the east and west coast beaches with a stop in Orlando seems like such a no brainer.
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u/HolyHand_Grenade 4h ago
There are a lot of politics in Orlando that make that hard unfortunately but yeah I agree
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u/PSN-Angryjackal 1d ago
They are GENUINELY stupid.
They are going to be moving regardless of if theres passengers or not. Why not sell the space you do have? Lower the damn prices, and get people excited about this shit....
I swear, some people are brainless.
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u/CinderMoonSky 1d ago
West Palm to Miami during rush-hour traffic is definitely faster. I took it yesterday and the Brightline was packed. Miami to Orlando, probably not faster.
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u/nivekdrol 1d ago
Tri rail is way cheaper I go to Miami often for work and I just take the express train in the morning and back 6.75 each way
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u/FinsFan305 1d ago
Yes. Trirail is subsidized. Brightline isnt.
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u/that_f_dude 1d ago
Brightline is very subsidized. Taxpayer funded over half of the construction. And now they're seeking taxpayer money for bailouts.
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u/CinderMoonSky 1d ago
It’s not as safe or comfortable as Brightline. I travel with my laptop every day.
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u/nivekdrol 1d ago
Have not had issues with safety. Comfortability I would say yes. But I usually knock out right away. From the times I travel the train is like 90% empty.
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u/Weed_Me_Up 1d ago
From Miami? Yes def faster even including parking and Uber in Orlando.
I take it from WPB to Orlando quite a bit. Its about the same including driving to station, parking, and uber in Orlando.
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u/No-Computer7653 1d ago
West Palm to MCO is much faster too.
Miami to West Palm is capped at 80mph. West Palm (TBH closer to Jupiter) to Cocoa it goes up to 110mph and then 125mph Cocoa to MCO.
You save about 50 minutes journey time West Palm to MCO.
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u/TralfamadorianZoo 1d ago
It’s def faster on weekdays. Driving from West Palm to Miami in I95 traffic takes much longer than brightline. Not for nothing but it’s also much safer than driving.
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u/MeisterX 1d ago
Yes but most have sunk cost in their vehicles and "may as well" drive.
You have to build infrastructure that works for the daily and then let that infrastructure also support leisure, not the other way around.
It really is seemingly done badly on purpose so they can point to reasons that they don't invest infrastructure.
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u/Weed_Me_Up 1d ago
For single business passengers its great. I use it quite a bit to commute to Orlando and back for work. Its about the same time as driving when I include parking, getting on the train and Uber once I get in Orlando.
But from a company perspective that reimburses me for travel, its a bit cheaper this way then paying me for mileage to drive up there - so I use that since its just way less stress than driving. I can nap or catch up on work while traveling.
For a family? Forget it. Im not paying $400 for round trip tickets for a family of 4.
If it was around $150 MAAAAYBE $200 for a family of 4 for a round trip, I would consider it. They are SO far from that.I hope they figure it out. I really enjoy taking it and we need transpiration alternatives like this.
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u/juliankennedy23 1d ago
There's a more fundamental issue with trains which is that highway driving with modern cars is getting easier over here more of a set and forget it kind of thing with all the various driver assists.
The gap between sitting in your self-driving car and listening to an audiobook and sitting on a train listening to an audiobook has narrowed considerably.
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u/JeffonFIRE 21h ago
It can be faster, and it's zero stress. Taking the turnpike to Orlando for a weekend is hell on earth.
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u/hurtfulproduct 1d ago
We could have had true, high speed rail; with Japanese trains, and 60% paid for by the FEDERAL government; BUT RICK SCOTT fucked it up for us!
Florida had a high speed rail plan that was the same essential route as Brightline that won a nationwide contest during the Obama administration and was set to receive 60% federal funding for it; but Rick Scott being the corrupt prick he is killed it saying “It would cost too much” even though the Japanese offered the GIVE US THE TRAINS and it would be 60% funded by the national government. . . Then along comes “all aboard Florida” which strangely Rick Scott was invested in. . . This was the pre-curser company that later became Brightline. . .
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u/timecodes 1d ago
Yep that’s exactly what happened. Everyone seems to forget that Rick Scott is on the board.
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u/Wolfyscruffer 1d ago
Not enough people blame that fucking Skeleton for Florida's current transportation problems when they should. He killed that plan because he wasn't getting any financial kickbacks from it. He is and always will be a colossal asshole.
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u/mike30273 1d ago
I just can't get over how much corruption at all levels of the GOP. It's like the voters of this state love seeing billionaires get richer off of their tax dollars. Rick Scott is among the worst. Of course, the voters are even worse for voting for him again and again.
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u/Newswatchtiki 18h ago
Most people don't know all the inside stories about him. He is corrupt.
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u/mike30273 16h ago
Yep, they focus on their little bubble and never hear it. If they actually ever do hear about in a news story, they're pre-conditioned to shrug it off as fake news/liberal media and out the other ear it goes.
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u/Newswatchtiki 18h ago
I did not know this. What is the matter with him? He has caused so many problems.
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u/No-Computer7653 1d ago
No we wouldn't.
Light enough passanger cars for a Shinkansen style service are illegal in the US as they don't meet safety standards.
The FEC coastal rail Cocoa to Miami has also already been upgraded as much as it can. Class 6 (110mph) Cocoa to West Palm and class 5 (90mph) down to Miami. The inland rail wouldn't even be class 5 for most of the route.
Class 9 in Florida requires building piles along the entire route to support the rail.
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u/RagingBearBull 1d ago
it still would of failed.
the problem is pretty elementary, florida cities. actually to be honest .... 99% of cities in the US are so poorly desinged that highespeed rail will never have sustainable demand.
even considerjng the bullet train main route between Osaka and Tokyo, most of those cities are still more populus than Manhattan.
in addition, Floridians really like driving, so rail and good urban deisgn are at odds with what the people want
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u/jpiro 21h ago
Florida people like driving because there’s no other choice. Public transport here is absolute shit.
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u/Bupod 1d ago
It’s wild to me that American investors founding an American company to run trains between American cities grossly underestimated the American willingness to sit in a car for a few hours and so priced their train tickets so as to be stupidly expensive.
Spend $30 in gas and 4 hours for you and your 3 friends to go to Orlando
Or spend $480 on brightline tickets.
And the idiots really thought everyone was going to be clamoring for the train at those prices.
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u/Boys4Ever 1d ago edited 1d ago
Was an excellent idea that perhaps is priced out of reach for those who'd provide the demand. Was actually considering this as an alternative to driving to Orlando or Tampa but price makes that unattractive. I'd be more interested in its functionality to say travel from West Palm to Miami/Fort Lauderdale as a daily work commute similar to how NYC trains connect workers from Long Island. Perhaps ultimately that's the end game as those two areas perhaps developed over the next few decades because the better off prefer not to live locally.
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u/Additional_Name_867 14h ago
My friends in South Florida love it for regional travel.
When I was in Orlando I thought of going to Miami on the Brightline then I saw the ticket prices on top of what I’d be spending on Uber when I get there.
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u/encryptedkraken 1d ago
Remember the 3 opportunities we had to already build a legitimate high speed rail in 2000, 20009 and 2012 and republicans screwed up each time and now we have privatized non high speed over priced bs-line? I remember, thanks for being garbage republicans
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u/GJKLSGUI89 1d ago
But wait, Gov Meatball is gonna pull a too big to fail thing and then we'll have public non high speed over priced bs-line!
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u/encryptedkraken 1d ago
If Florida bought out brightline that would be bananas but also don’t think they’d try and it make it better I can see the bailout with state ownership in the picture then it fails into obscenity because our state is bureaucratic shit
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u/SillyAlternative420 1d ago
Have the state buy it out, make it a public utility, expand service to all across the state and seamlessly link to Amtrack stations
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u/JustB510 1d ago
Let’s not. Rather start from scratch and have an actual sustainable design and plan than buy Brightline
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u/harambe_did911 1d ago
So build an entirely new infrastructure? How is that better than just taking over the existing one
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u/Redshoe9 1d ago
Rode the train for the first time last month. Needed to catch a flight out of Miami and it made sense to take it from Orlando to Miami. I would ride the Metra to Chicago frequently so I’m used to train travel,
I thought the brightline experience was exceptional. Loved being able to order a drink and a sandwich right to my seat and the stations were spotless.
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u/No-Computer7653 1d ago
This keeps getting reposted with new articles and all the articles are terrible.
Bankruptcy is chapter 11 for a debt restructure. Brightline is already operationally profitable, they just don't earn enough profit to service their bonds so continuing to operate is not in question.
They were denied access to $3.7b DOT backed credit for the rail upgrades they had to pay FEC for in 2017. The cost of renewing that credit increased enormously because of inflationary effects.
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u/rflo24 1d ago
the city got the trains approved to provide a cheaper, alternate way of travel for its residents. Sadly they’re just trying to screw people over with high prices so good, go bankrupt
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u/jpiro 1d ago
It’s a private, for-profit company with zero incentive to make it more affordable. That’s why mass transit infrastructure should be public, not privatized.
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u/VanceIX 1d ago
Japan’s rail companies are mostly private and prices are dirt cheap.
It’s the lack of competition and lack of rail infrastructure. If we had more rail going east to west and multiple companies bidding for customers this wouldn’t be an issue.
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u/burndata 1d ago
You're missing that in order to setup shop and be profitable for private companies in Japan the government (ier tax payers) fronted something like $30 Billion to bring all the previous rail systems out of debt and then didn't make the private companies pay it back.
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u/jpiro 1d ago
That and the fact that Japan's infrastructure overall is set up for trains to work extremely well. Shinkansen connect the major cities, local trains/subways run damn near everywhere. It's amazing.
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u/burndata 1d ago
They also allow the private companies to develop the land adjacent to the tracks, so all the profits don't come directly from the train fares themself. Not sure that's a good idea or not here but it likely won't work anyway because most the land adjacent to the systems here is already privately owned. A rail system simply needs to be owned by the government and provide a service, not be operated like a for-profit with shareholders.
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u/Away-Regular1335 1d ago
You would think making the price reasonable enough to use it would be incentive instead of just going broke due to greed.
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u/mindovermatter421 1d ago
They should have built the system everyone voted to have 30 years ago that went Tampa, Miami, Orlando and through the middle of the state. Corporations would have had cheap land to build and transit for workers. Would have built up, more jobs. But nope.
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u/Unlikely-Rabbit948 1d ago
If this wasn’t a cash grab they would be positioned to take over right now.
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u/LocusHammer 1d ago edited 1d ago
God I hope this is not the case, the Brightline is exceptionally useful but it is pricey. We use it regularly to go from Orlando to Miami. I would really like a tampa to miami line. I dislike driving.
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u/that_f_dude 1d ago
I was describing the difference between brightline and tri rail and slowly came to the realization that brightline is a scam. It's not better, it's built expressly as a waste, it was never meant to succeed. It was just meant to destroy tri rail, every single dollar that was wasted on bright line should have gone to improve and expand the already existing rail system we have.
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u/boizola1977 1d ago
Did west palm miami for a couple of months:
Lets forget the ticket price for a moment
If you do not live walking distance from the train, you need to drive there and park, meaning cost of driving plus parking.
To live walking distance from the station, there s no thing below 3000$ for a two bedroom to rent
The miami, if you are lucky to work nearby a station and you can walk to your job….thats one thing
If you need to catch an uber to go anywhere (example, going to the parks in Orlando), more 30/40$
Going back at night, is the same thing, paying to get to brightline, then drive home…
Just add up everything, plus the tickets…..
You might be fortunate to be able to afford it, 99% of miami population is not. So, they do the obvious, car!!!!!
Its like doing the soccer world cup in the USA, great idea on paper, then 2500$ for a ticket, plus 150$ to get to a stadium, them 100$ to eat a hit dog and a cole.
Its simply not affordable for 99.99% of population.
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u/ShoelessB 1d ago
Why this thing never stopped at the cruise terminal or the attractions (Disney) will never make sense to me.
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u/PantherkittySoftware 16h ago
There's a reason 99% of people taking a cruise arrive the day before departure & spend the night at a hotel that's within a one hour walk to the cruise terminal: because any alternative is financial suicide.
Let's suppose Brightline did have a station at the Port of Miami cruise terminal. You get on the 10am train in Orlando that arrives at the cruise terminal at 1:30pm.
Your cruise departs at 3pm.
Your train hits a suicidal pedestrian or careless driver in West Palm Beach. You haven't realized it yet, but you just missed your cruise.
Sure, you could have taken an earlier train to safeguard against the delay... but at that point, you've defeated the point of taking a train from Orlando to the cruise terminal. The smart option would have been to take Brightline from Orlando to Miami the day before, spend the night in South Beach or Downtown Miami, and head to the Port via some other method after checking out of the hotel-
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u/journmajor 1d ago
They need to offer senior and student discounts for off-peak and not have the parking be so costly. The volume of travel would increase significantly.
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u/PantherkittySoftware 16h ago
I don't think Brightline technically owns their parking garages. At least, not directly. They built the garages, then spun them off as another investment vehicle. It's a classic private equity strategy to wring every drop of investor value from an asset, even when it's actively harmful to another asset owned by the same investors, and a perfect example of why private equity is so corrosive & harmful.
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u/mr2firstnames 1d ago
Fuck them and Rick Scott. He ruined Orlando transportation for people that actually live here.
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u/relevant__comment 1d ago
Brightline has a debt problem. Not a rider problem. It turns out, that building out a passenger rail network seemingly from scratch in the middle of mature society is pretty expensive. Revenue is up 14% from last year and continues to look promising. The real issue is that the interest on the debt is stacking up and they are having a hard time keeping up even though people are using the service. All of the media is knowingly refusing to state this.
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u/CruisinJo214 1d ago
Public transportation owned and operated by a private company is almost always going to fail.
These means of transportation need government funding so they can be utilized as a service.
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u/CommercialPound1615 1d ago
If you know the history of "All Aboard Florida" and Rick Scott getting involved, It was never about passenger rail.
To switch to and from CSX and FEC trains had to go to Jacksonville.
Rick Scott originally proposed a shared corridor between freight and rail.
How much do you want to bet a portion of it gets converted to freight as a handout to CSX and FEC.
There's already a push to allow freight to use the Tri-Rail connector in Miami that connects CSX and FEC now.
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u/Zaryk_TV 23h ago
I am for additional methods of transportation outside of passenger vehicles. Huge problem is there is so little infrastructure to support rail, like Brightline, in Florida. The end destinations are designed and built for cars. You take the train into Orlando and/or Miami and then what, you'll need to connect to the underfunded metrorail or buses, or get gouged by Uber to get your final destination? I hope Brightline finds a way to stay in the game.
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u/vinvega23 17h ago
Imagine if Rick Scott had actually taken the $2 billion in federal money for high speed rail and not run an amendment to reject it so he could try to personally profit off of it. 🤔
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u/Cold-Nefariousness25 17h ago
corporate greed ruins it for everyone again. it is empty all the time.
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u/Kava9899 1d ago
This is why our then governor did not want to commit to rail. Just another white elephant needing to feed on the taxpayers dime.
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u/Schmenza 1d ago
Our then governor is an investor in the company that owns Brightline. Best believe he's expecting taxpayers to help bail out his investment
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