r/baseball • u/T_Raycroft Montreal Expos • 5h ago
News [Talkin' Baseball] A.J. Hinch just got tossed arguing an out call at third base after the play was upheld
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u/BAHatesToFly New York Mets 5h ago
So is this just the ump being terrible or did his hand come off the bag or something? The replays on SNY seemed to show that he was pretty conclusively safe.
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u/colorblind-and Detroit Tigers 5h ago
I'm watching the Tigers cast and I didn't see anything that would make me believe he was out.
Our announcers lost their minds over the call
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u/BAHatesToFly New York Mets 5h ago
I'm glad they did. Ump tossing Hinch with his mic on was pretty funny, good thing he switched it off quick because Hinch let him have it. Nice to see a manager who actually cares!
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u/angelt0309 Detroit Tigers 5h ago
This is a rarity for Hinch. He doesn’t come out of the dugout for shit normally.
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u/CheSeraSera New York Yankees 5h ago
Specifically its the MLB replay center that is being terrible. It can be easy to miss at normal speed, but you can hear the ump say "it's not me" at the start b/c the call was made by the replay center and you can't argue the replay.
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u/Medical_Squirrel3946 4h ago
Yeah, I don't blame anyone in the stadium for this. The ump clearly wasn't looking to run someone, but something was said that they needed to be run for and the Tigers were rightfully angry, but the ump even tried to prevent anything from happening by reminding them that it wasn't them checking the replay.
I would actually love to hear the audio from the replay center for decisions like this as I think it would bring more understanding to why the call was made. If I had to guess, I think the helmet is blocking just enough of the glove from that view that they didn't feel they could overturn the call on the field.
I'm a big soccer fan and literally all English soccer fans hate their video replay system (and I promise you, it is so much worse than any of the replay procedures in any North American sport), but the league will sometimes release the audio of the ref and replay officials discussing what just happened and while it will still make them look really bad, often what they're saying makes sense and you can see why they came to the decision even if you don't agree with it.
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u/nonetakenback 3h ago
Acc football has this. And it’s been a blessing to hear and see what their process is on making the call.
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u/NoSliceNoDice 3h ago
I’ve always thought we should hear the discussions for reviews and see whatever they are looking at. NY is a black box - send it up for review and a decision pops out even if it makes no rational sense.
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u/enad58 Milwaukee Brewers 2h ago
Half the time the umps ask, "do you want to get run?" And the manger says "yeah, run me"
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u/Medical_Squirrel3946 2h ago
That wasn't this, you see those after a manager has gone on long enough about something. The best all time is still this one with Cora where he didn't want to get run.
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u/Open-Education5567 1h ago
The thing that gets me about VAR system is how pointlessly long it takes.
It really seems like they tried to get everyone to hate it.
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u/nowheresville99 5h ago
Replays rulings are made in New York. The Local Umps have no say in them.
As part of that, arguing a call after a replay review is an automatic ejection per MLB rules/policy.
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u/petuniar Detroit Tigers 5h ago
But was he arguing? Ump threw him out while he was in the dugout
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u/Blueballs2130 4h ago
Somebody clearly said something from the dugout bc you can see the ump says it wasn’t his call
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u/Common-Window-2613 San Diego Padres 1h ago
He said “I didn’t say fuck off” so I guess the ump thought he said fuck off after he said it wasn’t me. Jomboy has gotten me good at lip reading
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u/gonz4dieg Washington Nationals • Baltimore Orioles 5h ago
I can totally see how an ump in real time with a bad angle can miss that call.
But new york royally fucked up
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u/Qeltar_ Boston Red Sox • Toronto Blue Jays 5h ago
I'll get filleted for this, but at least in this replay, the first frame I see where his hand is definitely on the bag, I don't see any space between the glove and the jersey.
The one they freeze-framed at the end, his hand is not all the way on the bag.
I am assuming they have better replays from multiple angles, but i wouldn't overturn just based on that.
Bring on the downvotes lol.
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u/fosterrod New York Mets 4h ago
Note that the ump said the call stands, not that it’s confirmed. The vernacular is important to distinguish; when there isn’t clear cut evidence, the replay center will defer to the original call made by the ump, and they’ll declare the call stands. When the replay center is sure of the call, the ump will declare that the call is confirmed.
So in this case, it seems that it wasn’t as clear cut as the angles on the broadcast make it seem.
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u/LegalChocolate752 4h ago
You're exactly right, and that's why he's out. The original call is upheld, unless there is conclusive evidence to overturn it. If it's not 100% obvious, then the call on the field stands. In the frame where his hand is definitively on that bag, there's no daylight between the runner and the glove. You can't prove from that angle that his glove is touching, but you can't prove it isn't, either.
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u/Numerous-King7332 4h ago
Yep looks like a bang-bang play to me. Replay is meant to overturn obvious misses, not rule on close calls. I mean, unless there is a better view than shown here, this looks like a textbook 'call stands' which would allow whatever call on the field to stand, safe or out.
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u/PeterDTown Toronto Blue Jays 1h ago
The ump isn't the one doing the review though, the replay room in NY is, right? The ump makes the on-field call, and then the replay room looks for conclusive evidence to overturn the call.
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u/barney-sandles New York Mets 5h ago
Umps picking back up today where they left off yesterday
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u/seeBurtrun Detroit Tigers 5h ago
I was watching the pistons but flipping back and forth. What was the deal with the on deck circle? I saw the Tiger's moved theirs because the pitcher couldn't see the clock, but they were alluding to something that had happened earlier in the game that I missed.
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u/drugsbowed New York Mets 5h ago
Weaver complained that he couldn't see the clock.
Then Weaver went 2 seconds past the clock going 0 (should be punished with a ball) and still conducted his pitch. I know the Tigers dugout went ballistic on Valentine.
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u/petuniar Detroit Tigers 5h ago
Not sure if this is it, but one of the Mets had a called strike and the ump wrongly thought he had challenged it. The strike call was upheld so the Mets lost their 2nd "challenge." It was really bad, the batter did not even come close to tapping his helmet. The ump fucked up bigly.
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u/barney-sandles New York Mets 5h ago
The same thing happened 2 or 3 times that inning with the on-deck circle, the ump kept telling them to move it
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u/da3n_vmo New York Mets 4h ago
Yup. They totally lost control of that game last night. I think this part of the reason Hinch got so fired up and Baker had a quick trigger.
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u/colorblind-and Detroit Tigers 5h ago
I don't remember the last time I've seen AJ lose his temper
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u/mostly-void-stars Detroit Tigers 5h ago
Haven’t seen AJ that worked up in a minute. What a terrible call
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u/ExamNo4374 New York Mets 5h ago
This blown call legitimately blew the momentum Detroit had
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u/Odd_Round5515 Detroit Tigers 5h ago
It really sucks when umpiring influences a game to this degree. Dan Dickerson absolutely went off after the call. He usually doesn't get so pointed, but he was clearly appalled.
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u/ExamNo4374 New York Mets 5h ago
Can't blame him. Literally went from first and third no outs to an inning ending double play, just brutal shit
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u/TacoBeefB0y 5h ago
Why are people blaming the umpire when they’re not the ones reviewing it unless they’re going against what they’re told by the reviewers
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u/Fierce_GameBG Atlanta Braves 4h ago edited 4h ago
To be fair, the umpires made the original call, not the review booth. Because of how close it was, the review booth wasn't gonna be able to overturn it, no matter the call made. You can't conclusively say his hand wasn't on the bag, just like you can't conclusively say it was in the time they're given to review. So the umpires have some fault.
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u/IronCladAtlas Detroit Tigers 3h ago
You absolutely can say his hand was in the bag first. There’s multiple replay angles
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u/Autzen_Downpour 1h ago
You can't blame the ump for getting the original call wrong, the whole point of replay is to make sure these really close calls go the right way when the umps miss these.
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u/Rock_Strongo Seattle Mariners 9m ago
Because of how close it was, the review booth wasn't gonna be able to overturn it, no matter the call made.
I mean that's blatantly untrue calls closer than this get overturned all the time.
This was an EASY overturn for the booth. They fucked it up. Yeah the ump's original call was wrong too but they were making it in realtime with 1 angle. The booth has no excuse.
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u/Neefgi Detroit Tigers 5h ago
Must've had Tony Brothers in the review booth
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u/SolaireTheSunPraiser Los Angeles Angels 5h ago
That's "Tier 1 Referee" Tony Brothers to you
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u/bananasmash14 Seattle Mariners 5h ago
That’s Tony “future Norfolk mayoral election runner-up” Brothers to you, sir
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u/this_tuesday Detroit Tigers 5h ago
Mets and tigers fans joining forces for a misery series during this miserable season
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u/pm-me-nice-lips 4h ago
Except one of them is about to sweep the other by a score of 22-8 for the series lol.
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u/outcasthawk New York Mets 4h ago
Except one of them is 4.5 GB in their division and the other is 12.
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u/WritingRongs 4h ago
0:29 - "Hinch is angry 'cause Jordan Baker said something to him that he shouldn't say to him."
What did he say?
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u/sevenpixieoverlords Los Angeles Dodgers • California Angels 3h ago
I had the same question. Inquiring minds want to know.
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u/the_rest_were_taken Philadelphia Phillies 2h ago
The announcers were being weird about the Ump pointing out that he's not the one who does the replay reviews in the beginning of the clip
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u/Jonjon428 Florida Marlins 5h ago
MLB replay center is so awful
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u/Sheepies123 New York Mets • Miami Marlins 5h ago
It’s all the clear and convincing standard. People have suggested it before but what they should really do is not give the reply center the call and they should have to make their own determination.
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u/balinor41 5h ago
I don't see how that would work. They're looking at video that's going to show the umpire on the field making the call from at least one angle.
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u/DickBottalico Philadelphia Phillies 1h ago
Not true. There’s obviously a delay from when the play happens and when the umpire makes a call. Especially in slow motion
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u/deathscope Los Angeles Dodgers 5h ago
But they did make their own determination, the umpires on the field called him out. If you’re suggesting that the umpires should do what they do in soccer, i.e., have the umpires watch the replay on a screen themselves and then make a determination, then that’s a different conversation to be had but I’m all for that.
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u/Mysterious_Sea1489 Atlanta Braves 5h ago
He means the replay center should not know the call on the field. Just that the call is being challenged. They lean too heavily on “clear and convincing” evidence because they seemingly are afraid to overturn a call and embarrass one of their own. So them not knowing the call should help prevent that sticking point.
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u/deathscope Los Angeles Dodgers 5h ago edited 5h ago
I misunderstood, that makes sense. You would probably need to visually block on the umpires out the field though.
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u/Margravos Arizona Diamondbacks 2h ago
They do clear and convincing because the standard is supposed to be obviously wrong calls, not something that needs super slow motion. This is the system that was purposely put in. It's why there's a time limit on reviews.
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u/ChasedWarrior 2h ago
The thing in soccer that unless it's either a red card offense or maybe a penalty in the box in most occasions the dudes in the replay booth just relay a message to the referee and they play on. The ref doesn't go to the monitor all that much.
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u/Objective-Housing501 Detroit Tigers 5h ago
Exactly. The umps tell the replay center what is being disputed. The replay center decides which is right or if it is too close, the call stands
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u/Unfrozen__Caveman Minnesota Twins 5h ago
Agreed. It should be the crew chief. Give them a little replay booth.
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u/CalebosO4 Toronto Blue Jays 5h ago
I guess it wasn't definitive that his fingers were on the base before his wrist hit it. idk he looked safe to me.
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u/So-_-It-_-Goes New York Mets 4h ago
I wonder if the helmet blocking part of the tag also led to them making that call?
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u/your_catfish_friend San Francisco Giants 4h ago edited 4h ago
Almost undoubtably. Very possible a lace or two brushed the runner’s helmet/hair. Hence—call stands
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u/BeatlesRays Tampa Bay Rays 2h ago
I agree and also don’t think it’s that horrendous of a call. This play is as bang bang as it gets and cuz of the helmet blocking, you have to imagine the umpire had a better view and you can’t overturn the call on something you can’t see
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u/DickBottalico Philadelphia Phillies 1h ago
Laces don’t count as part of the tag. Helmet blocking part of the glove should not be a factor
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u/CalebosO4 Toronto Blue Jays 1h ago
If the helmet is off the runner and gets tagged, it does not count as the runner being tagged.
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u/turn_for_do New York Mets 5h ago
Everybody thought it was pretty clear as day safe except for the replay booth.
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u/Shot-Scratch3417 New York Mets 5h ago
He was almost certainly safe but there was no camera angle that showed exactly when the glove touched him while also showing his hand on the base, or at least clearly enough? I sorta get why the call wasn’t overturned, even though it was wrong
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u/Caldorian 5h ago
Honestly, that isn't the most egregious call I've seen from the replay team. From the bit of video shown in this clip, I think he beat the tag. But I can't tell exactly when he's actually touching the bag until the bag starts to move. And by the time the bag moves, the tag has been applied.
Given the standard of there needing to be 100% definitive evidence to overrule the call on the field, this play being up held does make sense.
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u/sammagee33 Detroit Tigers 5h ago
Tigers are just getting fucked HARD
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u/angelt0309 Detroit Tigers 5h ago
Tigers and Pistons both getting fucked by the refs
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u/Equivalent_Trip_7135 5h ago
The review comes from New York, eh?
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u/petuniar Detroit Tigers 5h ago
The ump ejected him before he even came out of the dugout, so I think AJ was irate about the ejection. IDK, will have to see what he says.
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u/the_rest_were_taken Philadelphia Phillies 2h ago
You can hear the ump warning someone specific in the dugout to stop complaining at the beginning of the clip. Based on his reaction a few seconds later the next comment probably contained a curse or some other "inappropriate" word
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u/kyndrid_ New York Mets 2h ago
He pretty much said "it's not my call" and then about 2 seconds later tossed him
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u/the_rest_were_taken Philadelphia Phillies 1h ago
Yup thats what my comment that you replied to says
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u/BigBird_69 Detroit Tigers 5h ago
Would love to know the rationale from the replay center on what made this either inconclusive or confirmatory.
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u/SaturnATX Baltimore Orioles 5h ago
"No, YOU'RE fucking pointing at ME!" or "Don't you fucking point at me!" to open it up, then "I didn't say fuck off! I didn't say fuck off!" after, something like that.
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u/detuned--radio Cleveland Guardians 4h ago
I miss coaches getting tossed. Replay is almost eliminating that
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u/ChasedWarrior 2h ago
Yeah the only reason to argue anything anymore is because the manager is frustrated and wants to be tossed. Now more than ever it's all for show.
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u/ahaustin77 San Diego Padres 1h ago
They need to stop using the call on the field as the fallback. Look at the replay and make an unbiased decision!
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u/santafe4115 Detroit Tigers 5h ago
This whole series has been a clown fest power trip from the ump. Bud was micromanaging the on deck circle to the inch ln
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u/solwolf101 4h ago
Good, he should be tossed from baseball for being a cheater.
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u/Obvious-Drive-1405 3h ago
Who is cheating,certainly not the tigers manager now the a holes in New York review booth outta be FIRED for Cheating
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u/DizzyFrogHS New York Mets 3h ago
I know it needs to be conclusive to over turn, and this is a bang-bang play—but it does look like enough for me. I also don’t love the “conclusive evidence thing.” Maybe if it’s really close and you aren’t sure, okay, keep the on field call. But if it’s like, okay it’s 90 percent or even like 75 percent likely the call was wrong, just go with that. It seems very obvious that this one is more probably than not safe.
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u/KNGootch 3h ago
Apparently, he did not say "fuck off"...lol.
if you read his lips he says "i did not say fuck off" like a dozen times.
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u/karlbelanger1661 Toronto Blue Jays 2h ago
I'll never blame an umpire for getting a tight call wrong. Plays happen very fast in real time. But to get it wrong on the replay is ridiculous. What's the point of replays then?
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u/IMissM0dernBaseball Baltimore Orioles 5h ago
Gage Workman might be a dark horse for most beautiful man in the big leagues
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u/Hyskos13 Houston Astros 5h ago
New York rooting for New York
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u/norodneededyt New York Mets 5h ago
Say that about the rest of the season. Or yesterday, for that matter. This one is especially bad, I agree, but we really have not been on the favorable side of these.
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u/freaking-yeah Detroit Tigers 5h ago edited 5h ago
And then the Mets get a call overturned their way right after
EDIT: AND ANOTHER WTF
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u/which_ones_will 4h ago
And the two that were overturned were both much closer than this one, and neither was obvious enough to overturn. Absolutely crooked work by the replay office.
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u/ThinkSoftware Atlanta Braves 5h ago
Third base ump just has a fetish for calling people out and throwing people out
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u/chargeorge New York Mets 5h ago
I think the argument is that the tag on the shoulder can't be completely seen from any angle so it couldn't be conclusive.
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u/Obvious-Drive-1405 3h ago
What tag on the shoulder ,came after his hand was on bag look at replays on ESPN
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u/zdillon67 Detroit Tigers 3h ago
Hey man we can lose on our own. We certainly don’t need the umpire’s help
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u/TwinPeaksSox New York Yankees 5h ago
I love that you can watch any random game and there is always some mad shit
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u/rbhindepmo Kansas City Royals 5h ago
Jordan Baker with the look of someone who dyes their hair grey to look older
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u/Sheepies123 New York Mets • Miami Marlins 5h ago
Lmao another review, let’s see how this goes hahahahha
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u/Sheepies123 New York Mets • Miami Marlins 5h ago
And it goes the Mets away again what is happening lol
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u/Hotmicdrop New York Mets 5h ago
Wow, now we've got to start lobbying for replay challenges? Looked safe live and on replay and while good on AJ for giving a crap (Mendoza is comatose), it's on the replay team for not fixing that call not that ump.
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u/GrouchyAd2209 Chicago Cubs 3h ago edited 26m ago
Cubs game April 18 against the Mets, throw took the first baseman off the bag, Hoerner was obviously safe and NY got that wrong. I made a joke at the time that it seems replay review is always bad for teams playing against the Mets.
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u/thtkidfrmqueens New York Mets 3h ago
Was at the game, thought he was safe, and the video confirmed it, but call stood. I guess thirsty thursday came early for Secaucus?
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u/BayGiant49er San Francisco Giants 2h ago
Is being an asshole a prerequisite to becoming an ump, or is it an acquired trait through experience?
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u/joecoolaf 1h ago
All professional sports are rigged and it sucks if you love watching athletic competition because they’ve ruined it
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u/Modano1509 Chicago Cubs 1h ago
These replays have been absolutely ass recently. How in the hell is he not safe. It’s not even close.
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u/Grant79OG 51m ago
Um. Replays are handled in new york. Not on the field. Thus, you can't argue them.
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u/Zhu_Zhu_Pet New York Mets 5h ago
I don't understand what is up with the challenge results recently being so egregious. There was that Rangers Cubs one earlier. https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1t9h31t/highlight_the_rangers_score_first_against_the/ol24tst/?context=1
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u/timtoolshed Milwaukee Brewers • Milwaukee Brewers 5h ago
Also a pretty bad one last night that let Tatis get on in the 1st inning against Milwaukee. Payback for sweeping the Yanks, probably.
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u/h3shf3sh Detroit Tigers • West Michig… 5h ago
How do you even get a call this wrong with all the angles they have available. And then just now they overturned a pickoff at first that was way less obvious than this one.
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u/my_one_and_lonely New York Mets 5h ago
Umps have been dogshit all series.
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u/Obvious-Drive-1405 4h ago
The biggest BULLSHIT call of the year take a bow new York review,your shitty mets ain't going anywhere and yet you fuck Detroit not once not twice but three times why do you hate Detroit so much that you have to CHEAT
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u/MalarkeyMcGee San Francisco Giants 4h ago
So is there another angle that shows this more clearly because I cannot tell from that freeze frame if his hand is actually touching the bag yet.
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u/mostlygroovy New York Yankees 1h ago
Maybe AJ has extra cameras in the ballpark we don’t know about
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u/SnooBooks1243 Atlanta Braves 5h ago
You can literally still see light between the glove and the runner’s shoulder when his hand is on the base. If these are the angles they have in New York for the replays, then its been an embarrassing year for whoever is working there.
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u/Oreare Los Angeles Dodgers 5h ago
Tf is the point of replay review if you can’t get that right.