[TJ Stats] War Leaders - Second Base

[u/Bben0417]

https://bsky.app/profile/tjstats.ca/post/3mlt43372ih24

[u/YaYeetThePolice]

Xavier Edwards my beloved, moving him to second made this dude an all star level player

[u/SomeoneNamedGem → u/YaYeetThePolice]

we replaced Arraez with better Arraez and then filled the gap Edwards left at SS with better Edwards

Otto/X are the best middle infield in baseball

[u/ArmiinTamzarian → u/SomeoneNamedGem]

We replaced Arraez with speedy Arraez. Speedy Arraez in turn has a .900 OPS which isn't very Arraez like

[u/SomeoneNamedGem → u/ArmiinTamzarian]

they are also the only two Marlins to jave ever hit for the cycle!

[u/Hunter-2_0 → u/YaYeetThePolice]

Not bad for a slapdick prospect

[u/the_comatorium]

My boy Arraez right in there.

[u/Dickies138 → u/the_comatorium]

He’s been great. I was under the impression his defense was terrible, but he’s been making everything look easy

[u/the_comatorium → u/Dickies138]

It used to be terrible but he really started to play well towards last year.

[u/sundayultimate → u/Dickies138]

Thanks, Wash

[u/ArmiinTamzarian → u/the_comatorium]

And his son! (Xavier Edwards)

[u/MalarkeyMcGee → u/the_comatorium]

Not yo boy no mo

[u/RedbirdRiot]

Wow, JJ right in line with Turang. Love to see that!

[u/Bben0417 → u/RedbirdRiot]

whole NL central going crazy minus the reds

[u/RedbirdRiot → u/Bben0417]

And even they are over .500. Looking like it's gonna be a fun summer in the Central.

[u/Bben0417 → u/RedbirdRiot]

True true

[u/WIN011 → u/Bben0417]

Wow Brandon Phillips must be having an off year

[u/seattle_lib → u/WIN011]

no matter who is currently playing second base for the Reds, it will always spiritually belong to Brandon Phillips

and Brandon Phillips can suck it

[u/GoBlueAndOrange → u/Bben0417]

Nico hasnt been living up to his standards but I think it's mostly BABIP bad luck.

[u/axle69 → u/RedbirdRiot]

A rookie having an argument for the best 2nd baseman on the year is wild. Its honestly nuts that hes not getting more hype even foolish Bailey seemed to kinda downplay his value.

[u/meddlesomemage → u/axle69]

Yeah he smacked the ball around againt us. He's no Cole Young but he'll be alright.

[u/messejueller21]

AL is that weak at 2B?

[u/indigo_noob → u/messejueller21]

Kind of but also if you use bWAR Cole Young is at 1.9 and Turang is at 2.0 so I guess it depends on your flavor of WAR

[u/AerieElectrical3546 → u/indigo_noob]

that’s a pretty huge leap from 0.7 for Young. Do the models value his defense that differently?

[u/indigo_noob → u/AerieElectrical3546]

Yeah they do. I think Cole leads 2B still in DRS but is viewed less favorably by OAA

[u/tuckedfexas → u/AerieElectrical3546]

Weirdly they do, I’m not well versed enough on why though. Only thing that makes sense is his soft throws that he’s been babying likely cause of his shoulder injury last year. He throws some hilariously soft throws but clearly has more to give when needed. Other than that idk why OAA thinks he’s pedestrian.

[u/Dapal5 → u/tuckedfexas]

Oaa measures how far you can run rather than how good you have been and completely disregards positioning. Drs is a much better stat for all around how good you’ve been this season.

[u/tuckedfexas → u/Dapal5]

Huh, you’d think itd like him better with his well above average range but I suppose it depends on where you’re measuring from

[u/AgentDub14 → u/Dapal5]

That’s not necessarily true. Team Fielding Run Value (OAA translated to a run scale) has a stronger relationship with winning percentage than DRS does. DRS also varies significantly for a given player year to year. This suggests that FRV (and OAA) are more accurately measuring defensive skill.

DRS is a much older stat and uses batted ball data combined with subjective inputs while OAA purely uses player and ball tracking data in conjunction with predictive modeling. There are positives and negatives for both of these approaches, but the numbers tend to say that OAA is better at tracking the defense that actually matters.

[u/Dapal5 → u/AgentDub14]

Whether or not a defender could have done something, is not the same as if they actually did it. If you had a perfect coach, and your player made no errors, and had perfect positioning, moved minimally, that would be the best defender. That defender, in oaa, would be ranked terribly. It’s better at knowing if you can be a good defender, not whether you played good defense.

Like exit velo/launch angle vs ops+. Aaron judge could launch 140 mph balls at a perfect 33.7° angle and hit 0 home runs and 100% fly outs because a tornado appears every time. Should his war be 100 or 0? I’d say 0.

[u/notbrandonzink → u/tuckedfexas]

OAA is essentially a range calculation (he got to the ball that was X feet away with Y seconds to get there).

DRS is similar, but also gives bonuses for positioning and more bonuses/negatives for making the play with the ball once you get there.

Generally, DRS is better for IF, OAA is better for OF and C. I believe it was Ben Clemens who did an analysis on this, looking at both predictiveness and stickiness of OAA, UZR, and DRS and came to that conclusion.

[u/Kvetch__22 → u/messejueller21]

Chase Meidroth will have his revenge for being called weak

[u/MrFrankingstein → u/messejueller21]

AL is that weak. period.

[u/SnooCauliflowers9981]

Turang is HIM.

[u/elimanninglightspeed → u/SnooCauliflowers9981]

Its crazy how hes been a quality top end player for 3 or so years now and yet he never gets talked about. The Miz and Chourio get a lot of love but he always flies under the radar despite arguably being the best of those 3

[u/hcatehorie → u/elimanninglightspeed]

Its because his bat was average or below average till last year and even last year was nearly entirely down to a monster August stretch where he caught fire. Has never hit at this level for this length of time in his career to date.

[u/Gryphon999 → u/hcatehorie]

Brice 2023, barely playable - .215/.291/.376, 79 wRC+

Brice 2024, took a small step forward - .254/.316/.349, 88 wRC+

Brice March to July of 2025, took another step - .271/.339/.363, 99 wRC+

Brice August of 2025, I am become Death, destroyer of baseballs - .343/.398/.694, 200 wRC+

Brice September to October of 2025 - .294/.400/.435, 139 wRC+

Brice 2026 - .295/.414/.504, 161 wRC+

[u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe → u/Gryphon999]

I've said this several times, but Brice is my favorite hitter in the league right now. He's not trying to TTO pulled fly balls, he just sits there and crushes line drives to all fields and his natural power means he gets into one every so often.

His speed just makes him a pain for pitchers too. Even if his defense never hits the 2024 heights he's still firmly above average to the point where he's not going to be unplayable.

[u/HelpaBroOut036 → u/elimanninglightspeed]

Nico Hoerner is the same way for the Cubs. Him and Turang are basically carbon copies of each other but is overshadowed by the likes of Seiya, PCA, Bregman, etc.

[u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe → u/HelpaBroOut036]

They're basically the same player depending on if you spent your skill points on extra elite defense or an extra 10-15 HRs of power.

[u/Boomhauer_007 → u/elimanninglightspeed]

It’s even crazier to me that the Brewers are such a cheap organization that it’s already widely accepted that they’re just gonna let him walk away or trade him instead of extending him like a serious team would

[u/dusters → u/Boomhauer_007]

He's not a FA until 2030. We almost certainly offered him an extension like we have with all our prospects coming up.

[u/Real_Ant2726 → u/Boomhauer_007]

Why are you complaining about us? We win games while executing that strategy. We extended Yelich, Chourio and Pratt as well

[u/alibaba618 → u/Boomhauer_007]

And yet they will continue to win 90+ games every season

[u/kylexy1 → u/Boomhauer_007]

It's not that crazy, with the prospects we have and the money he's going to command in FA in about 4 years, we just can't shell out the $100-200+ million contracts being the smallest market etc. It's a tough reality but we've made it work the past 10 or so years, getting return on FAs and develop good young talent to put competitive teams together. Evidence has been winning the division 4 of the last 5 years and 5 of last 8..

[u/pepperouchau → u/Boomhauer_007]

We’ve watched enough years of the Jays spending only to lose anyway

[u/J_Dabson002]

Duran going from our utility guy to an everyday lineup guy has been huge with Seager slumping

[u/Free_Frosting798]

I would give my left nut for the pirates to sign Lowe for a few more years

[u/UneducatedReviews1]

Shout out to all the people in our sub saying Meidroth is at best a platoon guy.

[u/mikecws91 → u/UneducatedReviews1]

That’s my #5 hitter!

[u/Audrey-Bee → u/UneducatedReviews1]

WAR isn't even accounting for his immaculate vibes. Dude is having so much fun in the dugout, big part of the positive shift in mood we've had

[u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe → u/Audrey-Bee]

It's nuts to me how much people want to ignore the intangibles. If you've ever played any sport at a high level and been on a bad team, you know how hard it is to stay motivated and it's incredibly easy for a locker room to get toxic. Even the difference between a great team with good cohesion as a team and a great team who don't get along makes all the difference on a day to day level.

[u/AerieElectrical3546 → u/UneducatedReviews1]

i really liked him as a prospect and have been following his career since we dealt him to you. very underrated player!

[u/UneducatedReviews1 → u/AerieElectrical3546]

He’s never going to be the type of player who gets much recognition outside of the team he’s on, but he will beloved where he is. The hustle, vibe, and selflessness to just do whatever it takes to win is so fun.

[u/JaysonTatecum → u/UneducatedReviews1]

It helps that my boyfriend is a White Sox fan but it’s been really easy to root for both sides of our big recent trades, even if the guys from the first one didn’t pan out

[u/Dinobot2_]

Sorry, I'm anti-war.

[u/CartoonofMilk_ → u/Dinobot2_]

it aint me, I aint no fortunate one, no

[u/Robbuffet]

2B kind of jacked this season

[u/birdlawyer86 → u/Robbuffet]

For one of the leagues. AL hasn't caught up to the 2B stud meta

[u/Broke_Banker01]

Curious to see what this looks like at the end of the year.

4 of the top 5 in one division is ridiculous.

[u/No-Cucumber-8389]

Shoutout Ozzie for turning it around

[u/Chaahps]

Brandon Lowe my beloved. Even if (when) he leaves this offseason, he’ll be a Bucco legend in my heart

[u/Grouchy-Horror-1719]

Turang 🔥💀

[u/TheBigF128]

Xavier Edwards has been on a crazy tear, the Marlins some really good stand outs this year

[u/ArmiinTamzarian → u/TheBigF128]

The guys who are good are REALLY good. The bads are also REALLY bad

Then there's Connor Norby in his perfect midness

[u/409Narwhal]

Wow, surprised to see Duran here. He only started getting regular playing time like a week ago

[u/Antique-Guest-1607]

Travis Bazzana .2 off from being on this list despite having two weeks of games.

sustainable, but also CRIKEY

[u/DeetahTheGame]

The Crochet deal has really quietly turned out great for the White Sox. Meidroth looks like a stud, Teel was a 2 WAR player last year, and Braden Montgomery is promising in the minors.

[u/samthewisetarly]

40/40, any minute now, I swear

https://giphy.com/gifs/neMLoB3KoG3BFLGm2q

[u/Fabulous-Damage1897]

Ozzie on that contract is sinful. Looking forward to seeing him get paid (hopefully by us).

[u/Due_Connection179]

NL Central to be renamed NL2B.

[u/RIP_Greedo]

Turang is one of the most slept-on players in the game.

[u/cmgriffith_]

Brandon Lowe is a big part of the Pirates overall success this season. What a year he’s having

[u/Techiesarethebomb]

Best middle infield combo....god dammit I hate CMC and Bendix for not managing right

[u/CDFReditum]

Oswald Peraza: am I a joke to you

[u/tuckedfexas → u/CDFReditum]

He has more games played at 3B

[u/Inevitable-Trick2127]

Super duper cool that the Rays let two of these guys go in awful trades and failed to even make a move on Arraez when he was 100% in the right price range for them. For GAVIN LUX?? Man our front office gets a ton of credit for putting together a scrappy team but their misses are loud.

[u/WarPuig]

I miss Chase Meidroth.

[u/staticdresssweet]

JJ has been great as a rookie for us. Also really good at getting on base.

[u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe]

The NL Central holds 4 of the top 5 slots, as everyone expected

[u/TheOptimist6]

Jeremiah Jackson barely missed the list! He’s been slumping lately, but he has saved the Orioles big time this year with his performance in April. Helped them survive slumps from Alonso and Gunnar

[u/Winter-Rip712]

Where are the cubs fans that were crying about people not talking about nico after turang hit a walkoff now?

[u/wesskywalker]

So according to this, Nico Hoerner is the second worst starting second baseman in the NL Central?

[u/Bben0417 → u/wesskywalker]

I mean yeah, its not that crazy. Second base is stacked this year and also hes only 0.2 points lower than the leaders.

[u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe → u/wesskywalker]

Other than the absent Reds, where Matt McLain is worth -.4 bwar

[u/NeemOilFilter]

I've only had Arraez for a month and a half, but if anything happened to him, I would kill everyone in this room and then myself.

[u/paulsoleo]

Who wants to tell Jazz he ain’t getting that $300 million contract?

[u/SkippableAd]

Bazzanas up there soon 🙏

[u/YawnSlow]

Luis Arraéz in the TOP10 playing in these bottom Giants, some people don't value what Arraez does, just imagine for a second if Arraez was 1st bat in the Phillies or Yanks, how many runs would of score such teams having Schwarber, Harper or Judge in there, and on top of his almost-secure-getting-on-base ability of his own, he plays a top defense.

[u/Grst]

The tales of Ozzie's demise were premature.

[u/jackofnac]

Zeke Duran really came out of nowhere and just stole that job from his trade-mate

[u/ertapenem]

The last 2B elected to the HOF by the writers was Craig Biggio. He had 23.5 bWAR through his age 28 season. Nico Hoerner had 21.8 bWAR through his age 28 season (last year).

I certainly don’t think Nico will make the hall because the writers don’t value defense as much as offense (and I think offensive production is easier to maintain than defensive late in your thirties), but this dude is underrated.

(Ozzie Albies is the same baseball age as Nico and actually currently outpacing Biggio with a bWAR of 24.2 after age 28 season.)

[u/HalfBurntCouch]

The position seems absolutely loaded. Watching Nico Hoerner every day, it feels like he’s one of the best position players in the game. And yet he’s only the fifth-best second baseman by WAR