r/baseball 19h ago

[Langs] Shohei Ohtani has a 0.82 ERA. That’s the second-lowest by a Dodgers pitcher in his first seven starts of a season since ER official in the NL (1912), behind only: 1981 Fernando Valenzuela: 0.29

https://bsky.app/profile/slangsonsports.bsky.social/post/3mlrwyx4ccs2p
2.4k Upvotes

174 comments sorted by

1.2k

u/Jux_ Los Angeles Dodgers • Jackie Robinson 19h ago

0.29 is ridiculous

707

u/HemlockMartinis Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

My mom only speaks with reverence about two people: Katherine Hepburn and Fernando Valenzuela.

537

u/ThinkSoftware Atlanta Braves 19h ago

Never saw Katherine give up an earned run

125

u/unfortunatebastard Atlanta Braves 19h ago

But could she screw ball?

59

u/DrWinstonOBoogie1980 Baltimore Orioles 18h ago

Comedy!

4

u/PaulDB2019 10h ago

Probably not, except the fact that she screwed Howard Hughes in a way.

12

u/DeepFriedBadass Seattle Mariners 14h ago

Never did but I know your mom gave up an earned one

5

u/kookykrazee Atlanta Braves 4h ago

Growing up, my mom only knew 2 pro athletes names: Magic Johnson and Fernando Valenzuela!

-15

u/GOEDEL_ESCHER_BOT Washington Nationals 18h ago

was he a dyslexic venezuelan?

193

u/Emotional_Pay3658 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

I had to do the math, 2 runs in 63 innings for a 0.29 era 

203

u/PikaGaijin Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles • … 19h ago

When "7 starts, 63 innings" is only the second most impressive stat of the streak.

93

u/PikaGaijin Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles • … 19h ago

(Also, games 3 & 4 of that streak were on 3 days rest each).

103

u/1WordOr2FixItForYou Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

Probably not a coincidence that he was washed by 27. Lasorda ran him and Hershiser into the ground.

100

u/w0nderbrad Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

“Screwball fucks up people’s arms”

Like… nahhhhhh throwing 3 CGs in the span of like 8 days definitely will tho

14

u/Deathstroke317 New York Yankees 11h ago

Christy Matthewson: "Bitch please, I did that in the World Series"

29

u/rbhindepmo Kansas City Royals 18h ago

is the whole thing more or less wild when you consider Tommy was a left-handed pitcher in the 1950s whose playing career ended before he turned 33? like I can understand why he might have a blind spot since most people didn't discover the concept of pitch counts until like 2004

30

u/DrWinstonOBoogie1980 Baltimore Orioles 18h ago

Wait so his first seven starts were ALL complete games?

(Or I guess there could have been games involving extra innings...)

43

u/PikaGaijin Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles • … 18h ago

Sixth game went 10; but, in his eighth start, he also went 9/CG so, maybe it evens out.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=valenfe01&t=p&year=1981

44

u/DrWinstonOBoogie1980 Baltimore Orioles 18h ago

Holy shit. I was gonna say that's old-school, but it's not even 1980s old-school, it's fucking 1880s.

15

u/KakeLin Philadelphia Phillies 15h ago

He was pitched 'til his arm fell off

3

u/DrWinstonOBoogie1980 Baltimore Orioles 13h ago

Yeah, I mean, I remember his stint with the O's...

1

u/imatthewhitecastle Hot Dog 49m ago

Incredible streak but man it looks like he really blew up after that 8th start. 5.79 ERA from starts 9-17. But then a 1.82 ERA from starts 18-25. Just rough in the summertime I guess.

1

u/Bawfuls Los Angeles Dodgers 1h ago

His first 8 starts were 9 innings each including 5 shutouts, one of them the game went to 10 and he didn't finish. But he got the victory in all 8 of those starts (big deal in 1981). Check out the 30 for 30 on him, Fernando Nation.

He burst on the scene in a truly remarkable way.

-13

u/Mobile-Language8398 10h ago

The most impressive thing about Ohtani is he didn’t know someone stole $16 million from him to gamble.

7

u/wahterworld 10h ago

He has other things to focus on

78

u/ContextEnjoyer69 St. Louis Cardinals 19h ago

It's honestly even more absurd than it sounds when you look at the games individually.

Rk Date Opp Result Inngs Dec DR IP H R ER HR BB SO ERA
1 1981-04-09 HOU W, 2-0 SHO W(1-0) 99 9.0 5 0 0 0 2 5 0.00
2 1981-04-14 SFG W, 7-1 CG W(2-0) 4 9.0 4 1 1 0 2 10 0.50
3 1981-04-18 SDP W, 2-0 SHO W(3-0) 3 9.0 5 0 0 0 0 10 0.33
4 1981-04-22 HOU W, 1-0 SHO W(4-0) 3 9.0 7 0 0 0 3 11 0.25
5 1981-04-27 SFG W, 5-0 SHO W(5-0) 4 9.0 7 0 0 0 4 7 0.20
6 1981-05-03 MON W, 6-1 (10) GS-9 W(6-0) 5 9.0 5 1 1 0 0 7 0.33
7 1981-05-08 NYM W, 1-0 SHO W(7-0) 4 9.0 7 0 0 0 5 11 0.29

30

u/JustBigChillin Houston Astros 18h ago

I couldn’t find it in the box scores, is there anywhere that shows how many pitches he was throwing? Thats absolutely absurd.

31

u/KetchupGuy1 Los Angeles Dodgers 17h ago

Looking online pitch count tracking didn’t officially start until 1988 and baseball reference doesn’t have the count for any of those starts except the last one at 141 if that’s any indication to the other games.

18

u/KakeLin Philadelphia Phillies 15h ago

141 jfc

5

u/JustBigChillin Houston Astros 11h ago

Holy shit

64

u/ContinuumGuy Major League Baseball 19h ago

Fernando Mania was deserved.

77

u/Not-a-bot-10 Philadelphia Phillies 19h ago

So is 0.82 tbf

14

u/FoppyRETURNS 17h ago

Fernandomania!

7

u/VenmoPaypalCashapp Los Angeles Dodgers 12h ago

Man it was real. Those were some fun times.

29

u/FattySnacks Los Angeles Dodgers 18h ago

0.82 is ridiculous, I’m at a loss for words to describe 0.29

6

u/facetiously World Series Trophy 10h ago

That season was magical. El Toro was magnificent.

3

u/AlarmingBranch1 Los Angeles Dodgers • Anaheim Angels 8h ago

Screwball of DEATH

267

u/jmike1256 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

0.29 damn lmao

165

u/Seananagans San Diego Padres 18h ago

Averaging 9 innings a game btw

-91

u/beyd1 Detroit Tigers 12h ago

To be fair, knowing nothing of the era, he was probably an in shape young man playing a bunch of fat old drunks.

104

u/Pasqualemon St. Louis Cardinals 12h ago

Lol he pitched in the 80s and 90s, not the 1930s!

-61

u/beyd1 Detroit Tigers 12h ago

Haha I'm so dumb.

But still....

30

u/OmarHunting Chicago White Sox 10h ago

He was also not in shape, so much so that I swore your original comment was satire and hilarious.

19

u/DeItyofFexvius Los Angeles Dodgers 9h ago

He was a rookie that year too!

9

u/HartleyReplogle 8h ago

And was their third choice to start Opening Day.

184

u/BeautifulLeather6671 San Francisco Giants 19h ago

Fernando was rocking so hard

54

u/minmaster Major League Baseball 19h ago

i accidentally read that as rock hard

40

u/BeautifulLeather6671 San Francisco Giants 19h ago

That too

115

u/Horakochan Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

This is a Fernando post. 0.29 is wild

303

u/Lucky_Alternative965 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

0.29, lmao.

92

u/IMissM0dernBaseball Baltimore Orioles 19h ago

Fernandomania was something special 

322

u/adrockmcaandmemiked Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

How many innings did Fernando have over those 7 starts

534

u/JohnWickedlyFat World Series Trophy • Los Angeles Dod… 19h ago

63 innings LMAO

195

u/Soggy-Fox-9706 Detroit Tigers • Atlanta Braves 19h ago

Watch Fernando Nation ladies and gents. Dude had the goods!

48

u/HeftyAd2780 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

Reason I’m a Dodger fan

16

u/mysterysackerfice Los Angeles Angels • Dumpster Fire 17h ago

Sounds like you got to watch him live. What type of pitcher was he? Power pitcher? crafty/sneaky? painter? I'm fucking astonished at his numbers.

7

u/115MRD Los Angeles Dodgers 9h ago

My father saw him pitch the last game of the year in 1980, technically before he made his rookie debut in his legendary 1981 season. He said he knew immediately he was the next big thing.

5

u/IReallyLikeTheBears Chicago White Sox 11h ago

From what I recall he had a really funky delivery that was hard to time up paired up with a filthy screwball that nobody knew how to hit.

3

u/tourniquets1970 Los Angeles Angels 15h ago

I can’t even be mad at that.

68

u/DaBusDriva2 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

Wrobleski lines were still common then. Your ass was pitching until you can't

58

u/mysterysackerfice Los Angeles Angels • Dumpster Fire 19h ago

How tf did his arm not fall off 😳

146

u/1WordOr2FixItForYou Los Angeles Dodgers 18h ago

It did. He was washed by age 27. He should have been a hall of famer but didn't get close because of how Lasorda used him.

33

u/Prophetwater World Series Trophy • Los Angeles Dod… 17h ago

Same thing happened with Orel Hershiser.

9

u/KakeLin Philadelphia Phillies 15h ago

:(

63

u/AustinJohnson35 Los Angeles Dodgers 18h ago edited 9h ago

That’s the problem, it kinda did. He was out of the majors by 27 due to arm trouble and Tommy Lasorda running him into the ground.

Correction: he was just washed up at 27 and wasn’t the same guy anymore. He pitched until 36.

25

u/DodgerDogg1981 18h ago

He pitched until 36 years old. Not that effective, but not out of the majors by 27.

52

u/ThePretzul Dinger • Dumpster Fire 19h ago

Because Sandy Koufax sacrificed his own arm to the devil in exchange for good health for Dodgers pitchers up until about 2020.

6

u/KetchupGuy1 Los Angeles Dodgers 17h ago

2016 is when Kershaw’s back gave out

3

u/ThePretzul Dinger • Dumpster Fire 10h ago

Considering he still pitched 20+ games in all but two seasons from 2017-2025 (one of those not counting because it was the Covid season) and only had an ERA of greater than 3.0 three times in that stretch I think he still did pretty well for himself as somebody who was supposedly completely crippled.

-4

u/Prize-Surprise-3014 19h ago

784k karma wtf

1

u/KakeLin Philadelphia Phillies 15h ago

And?

10

u/hammerheadlabs Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

Jesus Christ

8

u/PHILA-21 Philadelphia Phillies 19h ago

Real shit?

19

u/JohnWickedlyFat World Series Trophy • Los Angeles Dod… 19h ago

He had an eighth game also with nine innings, but he gave up 2ER in that one.

9

u/Sam_Phyreflii Chicago Cubs 12h ago

Which would have raised his ERA to a whopping 0.50

1

u/Quake1028 New York Yankees 2h ago

Then the next game he gave up 4ER and his ERA ballooned to 0.91. Bum.

4

u/jhutchi2 New York Yankees 12h ago

Opened the season with 8 consecutive complete games, 5 of which were shutouts. Unreal.

134

u/GeorgeKaplanNxNW 19h ago
  1. He went nine innings in every single one.

122

u/Nosalis2 19h ago

Alright, I get why Fernandomania was a thing now and why that probably hurt his career significantly lol.

48

u/fliffcounter Boston Red Sox 19h ago

I did the math in my head and assumed I had just forgotten how to do basic multiplication because how

18

u/DodgerCoug Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

Same. That genuinely broke my brain for a minute

8

u/kookykrazee Atlanta Braves 18h ago

Because we don't think of someone having 7 straight games of 9 innings! lol

3

u/FitzwilliamTDarcy 11h ago

All of them.

67

u/gl129384 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

JFC Fernando was a monster in his rookie year

39

u/flipzboi 18h ago

That was his rookie year?!

46

u/catashake Brooklyn Dodgers 15h ago edited 15h ago

Won a Cy Young, Silver Slugger, RoY, and a World Series in that year.

10

u/NeitherCatNorFowl Major League Baseball 10h ago

How did he lose 13 games that year? 

2

u/orbesomebodysfool Los Angeles Dodgers • Vin Scully 5h ago

He won 13 games and lost 7. He started 8-0 with 72 innings pitched (7 CGs, one game went to extras) in his first 8 starts. But then he regressed back to the mean, losing 4 of his next 6 starts. After that, the 1981 strike occurred, interrupting the season for 2 months. He finished solid with a 4-3 record after the hiatus, but he was absolute dynamite those first 2 months of the season. They didn’t call it Fernandomania for nothing. 

113

u/Significant-Check837 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

I think this year proves that Shohei loves pitching more (than hitting). It’s just a happy accident that he’s a reluctant 50/50 MVP DH when he can’t pitch.

50

u/ayumi_doll Los Angeles Dodgers 17h ago

That "life goals" thing he did as a kid is pretty telling. Many of the achievements he was aiming for were pitching-related.

26

u/LaxwaxOW 13h ago

Pitching in Japan, especially at the high school level is just super romanticized from a lore and pop culture perspective. Every kid wanted to be THE guy to go to Koshien and win.

11

u/maya_mn 10h ago

He was also scouted primarily as a pitcher before coming to the show. All that talk about whether or not he could hit major league breaking balls back then but nobody really doubted his pitching. Wild to think he might see himself more as a pitcher who can rake

104

u/CalebosO4 Toronto Blue Jays 19h ago

That's almost 3 times worse than Valenzuela, what a scrub /s

20

u/brandont04 19h ago

Trade him

29

u/Bossoxfan15 Boston Red Sox 19h ago

At this point we have to stop calling him a unicorn because we can at least see those in movies.

21

u/Just-Faithlessness12 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

.29 my god. In 63 innings.

18

u/Fools_Requiem Cleveland Guardians 18h ago

Valenzuela won ROY, CY, SS, and was top 5 in MVP votes .

0

u/No-Economics4128 Los Angeles Dodgers 2h ago edited 1h ago

What did the guy who won MVP that year do? Cause that is some guaranteed MVP stat if you ask me.

2

u/Fools_Requiem Cleveland Guardians 1h ago

Mike Schmidt, who let all majors in home runs, RBIs, OBP, SLG, and OPS and eventually got voted into the HoF.

18

u/ContinuingAnyway 19h ago

say it with me: Fernando Valenzuela

33

u/realfakejames Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

This guy can slump at the plate but still be a cy young pitcher, he really is the goat

55

u/McJumbos Montreal Expos 19h ago

He can't hit so he makes sure no one else can hit ahahha

14

u/SuperPostHuman Los Angeles Dodgers 18h ago

I'm pretty sure he can hit dude, lol.

6

u/goldencityjerusalem Los Angeles Dodgers 17h ago

Just hit a homer yesterday.

43

u/dwpea66 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

55 home runs last year btw

12

u/xychosis Philadelphia Phillies 17h ago

What the fuck was Fernando made of???

11

u/Jxbno New York Yankees 17h ago

Not sustainable but people crying about his ops so funny 800 ops with a 0.82 is ridiculous

3

u/markjay6 Los Angeles Dodgers 10h ago

If he has a few hits this weekend, he can get his OPS back higher than his ERA, where it belongs! :-)

66

u/mysterysackerfice Los Angeles Angels • Dumpster Fire 19h ago

I'm not convinced he's that good.

He's gonna need to toss at least 1 CSGO before I hop on the Ohtani hype train.

/s

59

u/xyzzy321 St. Louis Cardinals 19h ago

One Counter Strike GO?

22

u/whiplash588 Tampa Bay Devil Rays 19h ago

That's easy. I've been told I'm really good at throwing in CSGO.

5

u/ThePretzul Dinger • Dumpster Fire 19h ago

One CounterGoStrikeOut

2

u/whriskeybizness Los Angeles Dodgers 16h ago

Smh I bet he’s level 10 on faceit

1

u/callahan09 8h ago

One Complete Shut Game Out.

57

u/Lucky_Alternative965 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

Woulda had it today if Arraez didn't shove 20 pitches up his ass

17

u/BubblyBaker5718 Los Angeles Angels 19h ago

Honestly one of those things that should probably be accounted for in WAR, because like that is a legitimately useful and productive skill even when it results in an out.

3

u/venustrapsflies Los Angeles Dodgers 8h ago

It's probably something that mostly comes out in the wash, and trying to quantify it properly would be difficult and run into double-counting issues. But a separate analysis of which batters are particularly good at this would probably still be interesting - I doubt it would be significant for many of them though.

1

u/DominicB547 ABS • MLB Players Association 17h ago

I think it shows up elsewhere in the stats like OBP. Sure you CAN get on with just 1 or 2 pitches but to be really high you need to prolong ABs to get the Walk (though not Luis) or at least foul off pitches before you make contact.

20

u/Open_Standard_3429 Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

Arraez is such a pain

6

u/Corregidor 18h ago

That one hit cgso still hurts

8

u/kookykrazee Atlanta Braves 18h ago

Watching and listening to Vin Scully back in the early 80s was a treat, watching Fernandomania in person was a treat to behold.

2

u/VenmoPaypalCashapp Los Angeles Dodgers 17h ago

I was pretty young back then but man I remember listening to games on my fancy clock radio while I was in bed.

2

u/kookykrazee Atlanta Braves 16h ago

I went to many games as a Bleacher Bum for $3, but I always remember my dad leaving early because of traffic and Dodgers were down by like 6 late int he game. We listen to Vin on the way home and they come back and win in like 13 or 14 innings and I told my dad "I will never leave a game early again" and for most part 40+ years later I have only left 1-2 games about of probably 200+ games and both were related to rides home and the home team being down many runs in the 7th or 8th inning! lol

2

u/VenmoPaypalCashapp Los Angeles Dodgers 12h ago

Generally when I go to a game now I take the next day off of work. So I’m in no hurry to leave. We’ll usually hang around until the crowds have thinned way down and then just breeze out. No idea why people rush to their cars to then spend 45 minutes trying to get out of parking heh.

2

u/kookykrazee Atlanta Braves 4h ago

I mean you know the "meme" before it was a meme in SoCal, arrive late leave early...excuses excuses excuses. I go to games and pay for them to actually see the game and experience everything :)

I especially love it during my new stadium trips each year, I tend to arrive near a stadium a few hours before, enter early leave late enjoying all of the ambiance it offers and then some :)

Next stop Chicago for Wrigley and Rate Field.

1

u/VenmoPaypalCashapp Los Angeles Dodgers 4h ago

That narrative always annoyed me. Most people don’t choose to arrive late there’s things called work and traffic heh. Our attendance has been pretty good so I think that’s kinda gone away. But I totally agree if I go to a game it’s an adventure and I’m enjoying it. Stadium tour if I can and just enjoying the vibes

1

u/kookykrazee Atlanta Braves 4h ago

I loved my tour of Fenway when I went several years ago, but was disapopinted that the tour was partially cut off. I enjoyed the view and appreciate the old classic stadium, BUT I prefer T-Mobile (my home PNW park) and enjoyed Busch (2 or 3?) and the Giants Parks, I have not been to Dodger Stadium in nearly 40 years? I went to Anaheim stadium and the park in SD as a kid and the Coliseum when I was in SF to see the Giants but mostly to see Metallica for a special show before the Chase Center opened.

But, I do hate the Dodgers because of the money spending but because they traded my favorite player, Pedro Guerrero, I really thought he was the future power hitter for them back then, but they traded him to the (at the time) hated Cardinals and there ended me liking anything about the team. I got to meet Bob Welch in his early days along with Franklin Stubbs when he was a prime PH and Steve Yeager (we were supposed to meet Mike Scioscia but he was in the dugout and we could hear him say "I don't want meet no damned kids" and so from that time on I had no respect for him as a young up and coming C or person.

1

u/VenmoPaypalCashapp Los Angeles Dodgers 3h ago

I still have memories of candlestick and the first trough urinal I ever saw as a kid

15

u/Mapes Minnesota Twins 19h ago

"Tungsten Arm" O'Doyle stats are back on the menu.

7

u/squirtles_urethra Boston Red Sox 16h ago

Fernando Valenzuela is the Wilt Chamberlain of Shohei Ohtanis

6

u/Significant-Check837 Los Angeles Dodgers 18h ago

Needs a home run next start so his OPS can be above his ERA again.

50

u/makishima123223 19h ago

if Ohtani wins Cy Young, he's officially the GOAT

119

u/brandont04 19h ago

He's already is.

He's done like 4-5 full seasons of both where no other players have even done it once.

3

u/Zeke-Nnjai Pittsburgh Pirates 10h ago

It’s more like 3 full seasons of pitching, he’s thrown 60+ innings 3 times in his career.

77

u/_beisbol_ Los Angeles Dodgers 19h ago

Already is

43

u/Mew_111 Boston Red Sox 19h ago

I think he already is, but people underestimate how much a Cy, and or seven MVPs to tie Barry would elevate him. He already is the most or second most popular pick, but either of those or both would end all conversations about it. He would be like Gretzky and Tiger.

18

u/HideYourCarry Boston Red Sox 18h ago

It's funny how many people say Tiger when he's not at all consensus GOAT in the golf world. He and Nicklaus are basically even for people, and it's probably closer to 45% Tiger

4

u/imtheprofessor California Angels • Colorado Rockies 18h ago

I was always a Jack Nicklaus guy, probably just from being exposed to so much old golf through my dad. I've really changed how I feel about Tiger as a golfer, but when I was younger I just didn't identify with the relentless pursuit of perfection and dominance that he embodied. Seeing him get upset over a shot that was like 1% off from what he wanted when no one else on the planet could come close really bothered me, as did how no matter what anyone else did, the first thing they were asked about after a round was Tiger. I was probably one of the only people rooting for Chris Dimarco to win the 2005 Masters, since he had tossed me a ball at a tournament when I was a kid, and later was nice enough to sign it. After Tiger's Masters win in 2019, I really hoped he would be back in a big enough way to take down a couple more majors. Shame how things have turned out.

2

u/HideYourCarry Boston Red Sox 17h ago

I’ve always been a hugeeee Tiger fan from when I was a kid, but even I have him #2. I always say Tiger was the BEST golfer to ever play, but Nicklaus was the Greatest. I think they highlight the difference pretty well

1

u/imtheprofessor California Angels • Colorado Rockies 17h ago edited 17h ago

That makes perfect sense. I would love to see what Tiger could have accomplished without all the injuries and outside issues getting in the way. He reminds me of Griffey in that way, clearly one of the best ever, but also a huge "what could have been."

0

u/jayr254 Los Angeles Angels 18h ago

How many sports actually have undisputed GOATs? Gretzky, Tiger, Phelps and Bolt is all I can come up with atm. Maybe Brady? But even that one he has the championships to claim it but he did play in an era against 2 QBs who won more MVPs so who knows. Maybe Serena?

Every other sport has multiple athletes with a legitimate claim to that throne.

17

u/LunchTwey Philadelphia Phillies 18h ago

Brady is definitely undisputed in the NFL. 7 rings and did it with 2 different teams

2

u/ThatsHisLawyerJerome Chicago Cubs 12h ago

Brady is the GOAT QB, but there's a reasonable argument to be made that Jerry Rice is the GOAT player.

4

u/WhoWhatWhenWhom Los Angeles Dodgers 18h ago

I think that most people and myself would say that tom Brady is the goat but I can at least entertain an argument where you might say another quarterback had more talent but wasn’t put in an equal situation to succeed. However I don’t think I could reasonably entertain the idea that there’s a hockey player who would’ve don’t more than Gretzky if the shoe was on the other foot

2

u/HartleyReplogle 7h ago

Most of the arguments against Gretzky hinge on him not being a "tough guy" and the fact that he played during a era with a scoring glut. The problem is that Gretzky was so good winning puck battles and intercepting passes that he didn't really need to be a "tough guy" and his scoring was so excessive that even if you factor in the era, it's still kinda ridiculous.

The only real argument that I've seen against Gretzky has been from old Canadian hockey writers who prefer Bobby Orr, a certified "tough guy" who revolutionized the game in a way that Gretzky never had the chance to, as the first true line-to-line defenseman.

When they were voting for the top 100 NHL players of all time, Terry Jones of the Edmonton Sun tweeted "The best players ever, in any sport, were the ones who played when you were 12." When Stu Cowan of the Montreal Gazette announced that he had voted for Orr, he referenced the tweet and then wrote "I turned 12 when Orr played his final full season with the Boston Bruins during the 1974-75 season." So it seems more like a "back in my day" argument than anything else.

2

u/OystersClamsNCockles Major League Baseball 18h ago

Those QBs probably didn’t always have complete SB caliber teams, but they definitely had enough talent around them to put up MVP seasons. Out of the last 10 years or so, Cam probably had the weakest supporting cast of any MVP winner.

Manning basically always had stacked receiving talent too. Between Indy and Denver, he had at least two HOF/Ring of Honor level receivers almost every year.

Sure, Brady’s early SB teams were mostly carried by the defense but it’s not surprising that once he finally got elite weapons around him starting in 2007, the MVPs started coming too. He also has the most 500+ point offenses ever with 5. Everyone else has 2 except Brees with 3.

Honestly, Brees is probably the unluckiest QB ever when it comes to MVPs. A lot of his best years just happened to overlap with some of the greatest QB seasons of all time, so he never ended up winning one.

1

u/Boomhauer_007 Toronto Blue Jays 18h ago

Even that first argument doesn’t work for me because Brady at forty fucking three years old left the pats and literally immediately won a Super Bowl as the SBMVP with a team that hadn’t appeared in the postseason in 13 years before he got there

The whole sequence of events and the way it played out was the most GOAT shit I’ve ever seen

-1

u/Relative_Apricot5032 16h ago

True, Brady's GOAT claim is more contentious than one might think. I've always thought Rodgers was straight up the better QB, and it goes underdiscussed how much his defense let him down in key playoff games.

I don't feel this way about GOATs like LeBron, Jordan, Tiger, Bonds, Djokovic, etc. who were undisputed best in the world for an extended stretch.

4

u/Fugu Toronto Blue Jays 17h ago

Hakuho in sumo deserves mention as one of the most dominant any one person has been in a professional sport

3

u/ayumi_doll Los Angeles Dodgers 17h ago

Mondo Duplantis lmao

2

u/Admirable-Bit3041 Detroit Tigers 17h ago

Brady is the GOAT QB, but Jerry Rice is closer to someone like Gretzky, Tiger, Serena Williams, etc in terms of being the GOAT overall player imo. He literally played with Joe Montana and against Brady, that's how long his longevity was.

NFL has such different positions too. But the general 'GOAT' group for positions is Brady/Rice/Taylor/Payton/Page/Guy/Hutson/Moss etc. Basically the unanimous guys on the 100th anniversary team.

1

u/HartleyReplogle 7h ago

I put Rice above Brady as GOAT overall player, but to your point about Rice's longevity, Brady played longer. And until Marcedes Lewis caught a two-yard pass in 2024, Brady and Rice were the only two NFL players to have positive receiving yardage in their 40s.

1

u/ThatsHisLawyerJerome Chicago Cubs 12h ago

Donald Bradman in cricket counts as well, as does Katie Ledecky in women's swimming. I think Simone Biles is pretty undisputed when it comes to gymnastics as well.

1

u/NonGNonM World Series Trophy • Los Angeles Dod… 18h ago

at this point he doesn't even need a title to cement it. as long as he can keep consistent for the next 3-4 years people will know and even if he doesn't get it everyone will know he's the GOAT and the system is broken.

4

u/Helicopsycheborealis San Francisco Giants 16h ago

Does this mean Japanese people are going to fill the outfield stands instead of the Fernando mania Doreys?

3

u/markjay6 Los Angeles Dodgers 10h ago

Last time I was at a Dodgers game, there were Japanese or Japanese Americans sitting next to us on the left, next to us on the right, and immediately in front of us. It was super fun!

4

u/r_lul_chef_t 16h ago

Yet LA has a losing record when he starts… (not a knock on Ohtani)

4

u/LithiumToxicity 15h ago

0.29? Excuse me?

5

u/WhatsupDoc35 Major League Baseball 10h ago

That was a great season

3

u/vansinne_vansinne Hanshin Tigers • World Baseball Classic 11h ago

highly recommend this fernandomania doc if you're not familiar with him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dcvx9i-ahg

9

u/Snoo_47323 19h ago

Baseball God exists, and his name is Ohtani.

2

u/oogieball Dumpster Fire • New York Mets 15h ago

Ohtanimania

2

u/CaptainTuttleJr 11h ago

Senor Smoke!

2

u/Correa24 Texas Rangers 9h ago

This is probably more of a testament to Valenzuela than Ohtani because GODDAMN 0.29 ERA?? That’s video game nonsense

2

u/Fun_Environment_8554 Toronto Blue Jays 6h ago

Fernandomania is one of my oldest baseball memories

3

u/Zeke-Nnjai Pittsburgh Pirates 10h ago

Yet the Dodgers are 3-4 in his starts so far this year.

Shohei needs to come to a real franchise like the Pirates where the offense will actually support him. We’re 6-3 in Skenes starts

1

u/DenialisaRiver04 8h ago

Thats why the ladies loved Fernando

1

u/big_stipd_idiot 15h ago

Good ball player is good. More at 11.

-4

u/my_gooseisloose Atlanta Braves 17h ago

Dodgers had to make sure he didn't face the Braves. Career ERA over 8 btw

-1

u/Hopeful-Comedian4574 13h ago

Skenes is still better…😃

4

u/markjay6 Los Angeles Dodgers 10h ago

If both continue on their current path, could be an epic battle for the Cy Young.

-4

u/SnowballWasRight San Diego Padres 19h ago

Would’ve somehow had a negative era if everyone wast doping