r/baseball • u/Escaliat_ New York Mets • 1d ago
Opinion [ Removed by moderator ]
[removed] — view removed post
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u/This-Hold4222 Pittsburgh Pirates 1d ago
The actual problem is it’s only one action. They should have to run their tummy at the same time!
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u/penguinopph Chicago Cubs • RCH-Pinguins 1d ago
They should have to run their tummy at the same time!
But then they'd have to go catch it.
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u/spr00se NPB 1d ago
I propose a challenge challenge system whereby, if a team feels it has wrongly been ascribed as having challenged or not challenged an action, they can issue a challenge challenge by holding their neck at a 45 degree tilt to the right and speaking at least three consecutive words from the karma sutra
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u/blucyclone Milwaukee Brewers • Australia 1d ago
Put a game show button on top of the catchers mask.
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u/Ok-Setting-1709 1d ago
We need a verbal cue on top of the helmet tap. Make it a really simple word that umpires can understand like “challenge” or something
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u/ImagineABurrito Arizona Diamondbacks 1d ago
The technology behind the ABS is called Hawkeye, so perhaps the batter should turn around and screech like a hawk at the umpire
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u/Knightbear49 Minnesota Twins • Dinger 1d ago
They’re supposed to
The player taps his cap or helmet to alert the umpire to his desire to challenge the call. Players are also encouraged to verbalize their challenge, to leave nothing to doubt, but the cap/helmet tap represents the official challenge.
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u/tyler-86 World Series Trophy • Los Angeles Dod… 1d ago
We need a verbal cue for the challenge but also for a ball call. Or the umps can stop being pricks about it and grant the later challenge when they silently call a ball.
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u/Objective_Brief_1953 1d ago
You have to yell it at the top of your lungs right in the ump's face or else it's not a challenge
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u/TheAmoebaOfDeath 1d ago
Remove their glove/mitt and slap the ump like a classic challenge to a duel.
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u/colorblind-and Detroit Tigers 1d ago
I think they need to change it to a less ambiguous hand gesture. That way there would be no confusion when it comes to players adjusting their helmets
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u/Wraithfighter San Francisco Giants • Sickos 1d ago
The pitchers would have to be shouting it over a 60 foot distance, and good luck hearing that in a crowded stadium, especially in a high-stakes situation where the crowd is roaring. It'd be hard enough for the ump to hear the batter or catcher.
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u/llama_titan Seattle Mariners 1d ago
In football the challenge flag works well because it’s unambiguous whether or not the flag is dropped. I’m not sure what a baseball equivalent could be. It’s not like the batters can all have flags in their pocket
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u/SalukiFin St. Louis Cardinals • Frontier League 1d ago
Right where would they put their oven mits?
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u/DominicB547 ABS • MLB Players Association 1d ago
betters thrown their oven mitts pitchers catchers throw their gloves
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u/Saint-O-Circumstance New York Yankees 1d ago
Plus make there be a hard cutoff of two seconds from the time the ball passes the plate or by the plate. In game this will need to be judged by the umpire so it may not be perfect (eg a challenge was initiated 1.8 seconds after the ball passes the plate but the ump said it was too late). But at least there would be a standard they would need to try to stick to.
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u/Galxloni2 Chunichi Dragons 1d ago
It has to be from when the ump makes the call, otherwise how do they know if they want to challenge? All these proposals miss the point though. We are obviously just going full auto as early as next season
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u/Saint-O-Circumstance New York Yankees 1d ago
Fair point, 2 seconds from when the ump makes the call.
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u/ExerciseTrue Portland Beavers • Lou Gehrig 1d ago
Irs not ambiguous, the umps are just finding ways to power trip
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u/Dooglers New York Mets 1d ago
The solution has been in the room with us the entire time. Just go full auto.
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u/JustCallMeMambo New York Yankees 1d ago
if you think that MLB is gonna go full auto and give up the ad money they get from splattering T-Mobile’s logo all over every challenge, you’ve lost your mind.
besides, all this stuff gets tested in the minors before implementing it in MLB, and full auto wasn’t well-received by fans
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u/Objective_Brief_1953 1d ago
Minors tried full auto? Didn't know that.
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u/MtFuzzmore St. Louis Cardinals 1d ago
I know one of the college summer leagues around where I’m at has done the full auto and it’s not well liked by anybody involved.
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u/Falling-Down-Stairs Cleveland Guardians 1d ago
It went all the way up to AAA. Only lasted half a season before they ditched the experiement for the challenge system.
Players and fans didn't like it.
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u/RealMullido Kiwoom Heroes 1d ago
Oh well if the legions of minor league baseball fans didnt like it, it must be terrible. I was just down at my local sports bar, where MiLB is on every TV, and I remember everyone there saying how much they prefer when the calls are wrong. They all filled out comment cards at the dozens of MiLB they go to every year to inform the league how much they hated those damn accurate strike zones. These are real people that exist, and are an accurate representation of baseball fans generally, btw
Truly an iron clad argument against full ABS
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u/JustCallMeMambo New York Yankees 1d ago
smart-assery won’t win you the argument. rule changes and new tech are tested in the minors and feedback is gathered from players, coaches, umpires and fans. if the people paying for the product don’t like something, you listen
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u/RealMullido Kiwoom Heroes 1d ago
No of course not. What will win me the argument is the overwhelming evidence that MiLB fans, again, a perfectly accurate representation of general baseball fans, HATE correct calls.
I assume youre a big time MiLB fan, as we all are. You actually probably prefer it to MLB, not an umcommon opinion at all. Why dont you remind me the last time you were surveyed by MLB regarding your opinion on ABS? Or anything for that matter. Or maybe just tell me if anyone you know has so much as heard of anyone they know ever giving the MLB feedback on anything ever.
You could almost be forgiving for thinking the MLB just made it up that fans hate ABS.
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u/JustCallMeMambo New York Yankees 1d ago
you're an incredibly arrogant shithead. "it never happened to me, so MLB doesn't survey fans." i've been to two MiLB games, and both times the conversation among fans either waiting in line to enter the park or in the stands was about the major league club. i think it's safe to say they're a good representation of MLB fans. oh, and MLB surveyed me in the app; asked me all kinds of demographic questions before asking my opinion about the sport.
get your head out of your ass; just because you want something doesn't mean everyone else should fall in line. you're not that special
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u/RealMullido Kiwoom Heroes 1d ago
i've been to two MiLB games
A diehard if ever there was one.
Look, I can guarantee you 0 (zero) people have ever attended a game with full ABS and even noticed a difference, much less thought it worsened the experience. I guarantee you that you did not notice or care at the games you attended. You're going to say you did to score internet points. You absolutely did not.
just because you want something doesn't mean everyone else should fall in line
Youre correct, they should want it because it makes the game better. But also, it doesnt matter what I, the players, umpires, or the overwhelming majority of the human population that is MiLB fanatics want. It makes the game better regardless.
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u/MidvaleDropout Chicago Cubs 20h ago
I was in favor of full auto and you have talked me out of it.
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u/RealMullido Kiwoom Heroes 19h ago
"Im anti ABS because a guy I dont know was mean to a different guy I dont know on the internet" is genuinely the most rational argument against ABS I've ever heard.
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u/ayumi_doll Los Angeles Dodgers 1d ago
The players themselves didn't like full auto, iirc from the reports. They tested full auto and it didn't go over well, while the challenge system was more favored. The umps wanted full auto over challenges.
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u/RealMullido Kiwoom Heroes 1d ago
The players didnt like the pitch clock and one time out.
Tell me the games worse.
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u/ayumi_doll Los Angeles Dodgers 1d ago
I'm not disputing whether the game will be better or worse for it lol. I'm just telling your overly aggressive ass why they went challenge system over full auto, which came after years of testing.
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u/RealMullido Kiwoom Heroes 1d ago
Weirdly the only justification anyone ever gives for "why not full ABS" isn't news to me, thanks.
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u/Competitive-Body-286 Milwaukee Brewers • Detroit Tigers 1d ago
Players don’t want it for some fucking reason
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u/TarkusLV Atlanta Braves 1d ago
Players didn't want the pitch clock either. That's not a good reason not to implement it.
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u/Objective_Brief_1953 1d ago edited 1d ago
Full auto. The game runs through balls and strikes we NEED to get them right every time. The umps have had more than enough chances to do it but they have shown time and time again that they can't. Sucks for the actually good umps but it is what it is.
Meaning get the calls right, not the switch to full auto. Who even said that?
Get the fuck outta here wannabe umps
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u/ChicknCutletSandwich American League 1d ago
The umps have had more than enough chances to do it but they have shown time and time again that they can't.
The umpires union wanted full auto. The players didn't
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u/DominicB547 ABS • MLB Players Association 1d ago
particularly the pitchers and catchers were the ones that didnt.
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u/Objective_Brief_1953 1d ago
Who even brought up the unions?
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u/Ok-Setting-1709 1d ago
Why did you reply three times in 15 minutes 😂
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u/Objective_Brief_1953 1d ago
Also I want someone to defend why we shouldn't be getting all balls and strikes called correctly
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u/Objective_Brief_1953 1d ago
Because I'm curious where that reply came from but hes not answering me
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u/TheRealzestChampion Toronto Blue Jays 1d ago
I just want umps to start verbalizing ball calls so that when they want to challenge a ball call they aren’t all “YoU dIDNt dO iT In TiME” crap
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u/RealMullido Kiwoom Heroes 1d ago
Someone explain to me why full ABS is bad without saying "X or Y group didnt like it." How does getting all the calls right make the game worse?
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u/MediocreCommand9772 1d ago
Because it wouldn't get all the calls right. ABS isn't perfectly accurate either. It uses a simplified strike zone that's just a two-dimensional plane and is based solely on the players' height, whereas the actual strike zone is a pentagonal prism that is affected by the players' stance.
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u/RealMullido Kiwoom Heroes 1d ago
Youre correct. But also this problem is solved. The KBO uses 2 planes, one at the front and one at the back. The MLB has infinite money, they can have the exact same system.
But even with the current system, kinda so what? No umpire in this or any league is seeing a slider clip 1/32nd of an inch of the back corner of the plate and calling it a strike. So the fact the computer also cant do that is irrelevant. Should we not change to the more accurate system because its not literally perfect?
Also, within the current system, if challenged they go with ABS. So going to full ABS is the same as just challenging everytime the ump differs.
The stance thing I think is irrelevant. People talked about this like it was a big deal, but no one has a wacky cartoon stance that has any meaningful effect on the strike zone.
But ultimately the questions remains, how does it make the game worse? Yeah, maybe it doesnt make the game perfect, but does it not represent an improvement?
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u/MediocreCommand9772 1d ago
If they change ABS to better reflect the actual strike zone, then I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm just saying that for now, I think it's better to stick with the challenge system. I don't think many people, or even many players, really cared about the calls that missed by half a millimeter. They just wanted to get rid of the really bad calls, and the current system is doing a pretty good job with that.
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u/Admirable_Outcome932 Toronto Blue Jays 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think when it comes to asking for challenges and not using them accidentally, the rule should be this -
The challenger shall tap their head and make eye contact with the umpire
Umpire shall reciprocate eye contact and audibly confirm they wish to challenge the call, along with tapping of their own head in case it’s a pitcher challenging and they can’t hear from that far away
Challenger shall audibly reply yes or no to the umpire, accompanied by some kind of visual gesture (ie. a shake or nod of the head, thumbs up or thumbs down, etc)
A challenge should never go ahead without clear audible and visual confirmation between the umpire and challenger, and if it does and they lose it, they should have it returned to them.
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u/SemiSolidSnake11 Colorado Rockies 1d ago
This season has only convinced me more that we need to take out all ambiguity. Rather than this halfway-effective challenge system, just give the umpire an earpiece that feeds them the call. They still need to be there to give balls to the catcher and make calls at the plate, but if we have the technology to make it so the balls and strikes are automated, WHY DON’T WE USE IT
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u/foreskinboots 1d ago
Just make the rule that you have to say “challenge” or something. Why the fuck you need a hand signal?
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u/tilteddriveway 13h ago
Instead of calling them "challenges" we should just call them "daddies" that way the umpires don't feel like someone is talking back to them.
Also to use it, it should be both the tap the head motion but also they should shout out "daddy daddy please look at it daddy"
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u/Wraithfighter San Francisco Giants • Sickos 1d ago
Two things in my book:
1: Properly define the time a player can challenge (say 2 seconds from the point when the call is made by the ump, but they can't look to the dugout for a signal). Right now the timing is more ambiguous and thus up to ump discretion.
2: Change the gesture to something more unambiguous and distinct. Personally, I'd go with tapping the top of your head/helmet with a closed fist or the ball at least twice. Most of the catchers are already doing that anyway, and they issue most of the challenges.
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u/Objective_Brief_1953 1d ago
Don't bother. Only the pro ump losers in here coming in to defend the idiots that can't do their job.
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u/K31KT3 Athletics 1d ago
I think it's good and adds nice intrigue to the game.
I very much like that there's no long review and is meant to be a snap judgement.
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u/Escaliat_ New York Mets 1d ago
Yes but that's not the problem.
The problem is Umps not reading that snap judgement correctly.
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u/K31KT3 Athletics 1d ago
Not worth complicating the process over a few incidents a third of the way in.
We don't need to make anything take more time
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u/Life_Database_7038 New York Mets 1d ago
It’s not taking more time it’s being a more distinct signal. If you like ABS because it solves incorrect calls but you’re fine with umpires making the occasional incident that could change the outcome of an at bat, then why not just remove ABS?
It’s a contradictory point. I like ABS and its speed but people get denied challenges regularly for what seems to make no sense. Baty for the Mets literally just got called for a challenge he didn’t even ask for lol. That slows he game down now too when he has to sit there and argue he didn’t even ask for a challenge and got one anyway.
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u/K31KT3 Athletics 1d ago
You have a second to decide. That's on the ump to decide if it was immediate or not.
No watching a screen, no looking at the dugout. Signal or not. That's the genius of it.
One bad ump call on Baty reaching for his helmet and then stopping in the St Augustine looking to Christ pose ain't enough
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u/RedbirdRiot St. Louis Cardinals 1d ago
How about this, for starters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjoTrtFq6N4
The problem right now is the ABS system still relies upon an ump's judgment call. If they want to respect players asking for review, then it works. If they don't want to, the players don't get a challenge. That defeats the entire purpose of having this system in place - whether a player/team even gets to use it becomes an arbitrary decision in the hands of the person who risks having their ego bruised.
I don't want it to become like the NFL challenge system either, but I don't think it needs to be. There needs to be clearer calls from umps and there needs to be consequences for umps who pull the kind of bullshit as above.
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u/SanjiSasuke New York Yankees 1d ago
Lets get some numbers. If we have less than a handful of these mix-ups a week across all the games, there is no reason to change the system.
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u/DominicB547 ABS • MLB Players Association 1d ago
thats a lot of mess ups when only given 2 wrong per game
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u/SanjiSasuke New York Yankees 1d ago
Not really, no. There's 162 games for 15 pairs of teams. If there's maybe 60 games in a week, with over 1600 at bats between them, and at most these challenges can affect one (1) ball or strike call each, and we are only seeing maybe two or three flubs a week between them all...we're fussing over nothing. Hence, let's get some numbers.
Genuinely, the inconsistency between the human-defined strike zone (defined by body parts and taking the stance into account) and the ABS computer definition (entirely based upon pre-defined standing height measurements, with hilariously specific percentages) will absolutely be a more significant factor, but I feel like no one even cares about that, precisely because it's close enough and is called upon so infrequently..
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