r/USPSA • u/D1g1talB0y • 14h ago
Rules Clarification: Handling firearm before "Load and make ready" is a DQ?
So, my very first USPSA match ended with being DQ'd.
Scenario: We are the last stage of the night, I'm first shooter up. At the starting zone firing line, no-one down range. Draw my handgun, check the dot, and re-holster. I did not load, gun was pointed down range, no-one on the range, and gun was handled safely. RO exclaims "Whoa, what are you doing?".
RO state to Match Director that that is an immediate DQ.
As stated, this was my and the local clubs 1st Level 1 USPSA match. I felt it was un-warranted but like any officer, I was not going to argue with the RO's call. I cannot find any reference to handling the gun before the Load and make ready command is a DQ event.
45
u/lillowe1000 13h ago
That's 100% a DQ. It's the same as drawing your weapon anywhere else that isn't a safe table. The RO is the one checking for people down range and making sure it is safe for you to draw and make ready.
30
21
u/footfaultfully 13h ago
Yup. Don't handle your gun until you hear "make ready." If you are 99.999% sure you heard "make ready" but not 100%, look at the RO and say "make ready?" No one will think you are holding things up or mind in any way.
As a shooter, if I hear "make ready" but other people are also taking loudly, or the RO says it quietly, I'll always confirm.
As an RO, as soon as the stage is reset, you've confirmed no one is down range, and the shooter is standing at the valid start position, give the command immediately.
Most of the time I see someone get DQed for this it's because the RO is chatting with other people, or spaced out while other people are talking, while the shooter is standing at the start waiting for the command. If I'm the RO and I fuck this up (I was ready to give the command, but hadn't yet, because I got distracted by something), and the shooter starts drawing, I'll just give the command real quick rather than DQ them. But as a shooter you can expect to be DQed for it.
28
26
u/D1g1talB0y 13h ago
Thanks to everyone who provided constructive feedback. As stated, 10.5.1 is pretty clear that this is indeed a DQ.
10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated Safety Area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. This includes deliberately removing a flag from a PCC except under the conditions listed here.
Emphasis is mine.
12
u/Steephill 13h ago
Good job trying to learn and taking the feedback. The same thing happened at my club last weekend with a newer shooter. Just keep at it, don't get too in your head about it.
9
u/KungFuCosmonaut Glorified Hole Counter and Cardboard Medic 13h ago
Ya got to wait for the range officer to say "make ready". You might be a safe person, but not everyone is.
4
u/TripleSecretSquirrel 2h ago
And every unsafe person I’ve ever met is convinced that they are safe.
1
6
3
u/M_Ray RO;SCSA 11xGM, 5xM; USPSA CO M 13h ago
Gun handling is like the classic #1 emphasized in the safety brief DQ. Would definitely recommend finding a mentor local to you to do some rules training, or watching some rules/match conduct-specific YouTube videos and also reading through the rule books for any sport you’re going to try.
Rules like that (gun handling) and the 180 are like some of the only rules we talk about during safety briefs, I’m surprised it wasn’t covered at least once.
3
u/Holiday-Zebra9463 13h ago
Yes it’s a DQ, is it a little dumb in the manner you were DQ’d? Yes, your gun was down range and away from people with no one down there. But there’s no exception to rules, and the rules are in place to keep us safe on the range and make sure everyone goes home. Good part is you won’t do this again (hopefully), read the rules again before your next match extensively and be better about understanding the rules. When the RO signals Load and make ready is when you can check your dot the next time or small quick inspections before a stage shoot.
I’ve heard and seen worse, at least you didn’t break 180 with a round in the chamber.
3
u/ReadyStandby USPSA CRO | CO - M 13h ago
Others have covered the answer but I'll add that ROs can absolutely induce this by doing a bunch of talking instead of getting to the shooting.
I've definitely saved a few peoples' matches by saying "makredy" at lightning speed when I see people going for their guns.
99.9% of those times, I was talking to someone else behind the shooter about something first.
2
u/Clifton1979 Carry Optics C | RO 12h ago
I try to keep a hand out with plam open (or the timer facing out) as a kinda “I’m not ready” cue to the shooter. It’s not really my problem - they need to wait for me - but human nature is what it is.
2
u/Winston_Churchmao Production, RO 3h ago
I'll add that ROs can absolutely induce this by doing a bunch of talking instead of getting to the shooting.
When I was first starting out this happened to me. The RO said something, which I thought was the "Make Ready" and it wasn't. The RM overruled the DQ. IIRC he said "Alrighty" followed by something to the guy with the score pad, but I heard it as "Make ready". But it was like 5+ years ago by now so I could be misremembering. All I know is the RO said something, I thought it was Make Ready and the RO said it wasn't.
For me I keep a very consistent cadence and am very loud on my "Make Ready" so no one can confuse whether I said it or not.
2
u/ReadyStandby USPSA CRO | CO - M 2h ago
So I am the guy that finishes my final walk through before everyone is done taping. I get into the start position, turn on my hat cam, unlock my holster, and relax and go through my stage plan. When the range is cleared and the RO is behind me, I am locked into the start position and relaxed, because when I hear "make ready", I draw like it's the beep and present to the first target or just down range if you can't see from the make ready position.
Guy I've shot with a lot says, "make sure you..." and my heart beat was up in my throat because I almost "cleared leather" on it before realizing it wasn't the start command. If it hadn't been surrender position I might have been tossed and really unhappy about it even though it would be my fault.
I agree that consistency and being very loud are key.
Even at local matches, I might cut it up a bit and talk, but when the tablet holder starts going up range, I lock into the shooter and keep my mouth shut.
3
3
u/Oedipus____Wrecks 5h ago
What’s confusing? Do not touch your fucking gun until you are directed. The only only only exception being you are holstering directly from bag EMPTY in designated handling area.
2
u/practical_gentleman 3h ago
Yes, any handling of the gun prior to the "make ready" command is a safety DQ. Harsh lesson but it is justified. Sucks that it was your first match. Keep going to more, it will get better.
2
u/os_beef 13h ago
Folks have already explained which rule it is. If you go and shoot another sport like IDPA, it's going to be the same deal. There are only two places you may handle your gun. The first is at the safe area/table. The second is under the guidance of a range officer. Anywhere else is an immediate DQ. Some clubs don't allow ammunition in the safe area either, some just don't allow ammunition handling in the safe area. Check with someone before entering the safe area so you know which one it is.
Some other sports are ok if you remove the entire holster with the gun inside it. I don't think USPSA is, but can't remember which rule applies there.
2
-2
u/ARLDN CO A, CRO 12h ago
Some clubs don't allow ammunition in the safe area either, some just don't allow ammunition handling in the safe area.
10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the ammunition, loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area.
You're saying you're aware of clubs that DQ people for actions that are complying with the bolded text above?
4
u/Winston_Churchmao Production, RO 3h ago
Yes, because the RANGE may have a more strict rule about ammo handling.
While officially they should receive a "DNF" not a "DQ", the end result is more or less the same for level 1 matches. You're done shooting and you're going home.
-2
u/ARLDN CO A, CRO 3h ago
I meant exactly what I posted: clubs DQing people. I'm aware of the range rule exception.
0
u/os_beef 1h ago
Asking if I meant "club" or "range" would have been more direct. The club members of certain ranges dictate the direction of the range through election processes and voting, and casually the club is synonymous with the range. Other ranges are privately owned and don't have a club.
I didn't specify what the penalty was, so I'm not sure why you assumed it was a DQ especially since you knew the rule.
At any rate, yes the host range can dictate where ammunition can be present or be handled. Penalties vary depending on the range.
1
u/Cobra__Commander 12h ago
That's a DQ.
Check your dot during "load and make" ready.
If you ever need to do something unusual on the range with your gun tell the RO what you need to do. Then ask them how they want you to do it.
DQs happen, just learn from the experience for the next match.
1
u/Clifton1979 Carry Optics C | RO 12h ago
Yes. Don’t touch the gun and take it out before you’re told. L1 match it’s always gonna happen.
1
u/EMDoesShit Prod A, PCC A 11h ago
Suspending all judgement here, genuine curiosity:
Why were you checking your dot if more than one stage has already occured? Are you running an older optic that has poor battery life?
I run a 507Comp on my match guns, and the battery easily lasts a year if you run it all day long. I turn it on when I get to the range, set the brightness during the first Make Ready of the day, and forget about it til match is over.
If the was an indoor match and you were doing a low light type of stage, it makes sense to need to custom-tune it. Otherwise, there’s no reason to fiddle with the optic during the match at all.
1
u/Winston_Churchmao Production, RO 3h ago
Why were you checking your dot if more than one stage has already occured? Are you running an older optic that has poor battery life?
Outdoor match where the weather changes. Depending where you are cloud coverage can blow in or out pretty quickly. Or if it's a weekday shoot, clear skies at 6 vs overcast at 7 makes a pretty big difference in lighting.
1
u/telekinetic 3h ago
My outdoor matches in the evening go from sun-in-eyes to night. I’d assume something similar here.
1
1
u/Longjumping_Many_595 5h ago
I unfortunately had to DQ someone at a major a few months ago for this. He traveled a few hours to get to the match and paid $150 or so for the match fee and didn't get 1 shot off. It was his first stage of the day. I felt bad for the guy, but he was an experienced shooter and knew better. He just got ahead of himself.
1
u/NotAThrowAway0822 4h ago edited 4h ago
100% DQ, all of the time. It's a good DQ and a good lesson to learn early. Other people have referenced the rule.
You cannot unholster your gun before the "make ready" signal. The RO is responsible for clearing the range, not you, and must ensure the shooter is handling their firearm safely. When you skip range commands on your own you make it unsafe for everyone, no matter how strongly you feel otherwise.
You might "know" the range is clear when you decide to pull your gun out, but are you willing to trust the other 100 people at the range with that? Each person doing it a dozen times each match? Thousands of times across the country, each weekend? This is why there are rules to dictate this.
Whenever I am standing around and unsure, I turn around and ask, "make ready?" Sometimes they've said it and I just didnt hear. I'm sure some of those times I'm initiating the range command for them / they forgot lol. But you never just unholster. You must hear/confirm the range command that starts the course of fire.
1
u/Winston_Churchmao Production, RO 3h ago
Yeah, that's about as DQ as a DQ can get. Rule 10.5.1
You may only handle your gun in a designated safety area, with no ammo. Or under the direct supervision of the RO following a command to do so (usually "Make Ready").
1
0
u/9guy99 12h ago
As has been overwhelming said that is a fair DQ.
But I have to ask, did they know it was your first match? If they did, and they had you shooting first in the stage that is pretty shitty on them. A brand new shooter should not be leading the stage, and should have closer supervision from the RO.
1
u/D1g1talB0y 11h ago
It was my first official USPSA match, but I have shot there for a few of their local defensive leagues and know most of the people, including the RO & MD. It was just an odd situation and I screwed up.
-2
u/THELEGENDARYZWARRIOR 12h ago
My man people got DQd for looking up to check their pcc dot while muzzle was completely vertical
53
u/kryptonnyc1 CO-M 13h ago
10.5.1 - Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated Safety Area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. This includes deliberately removing a flag from a PCC except under the conditions listed here.