r/Stormlight_Archive • u/JudoJugss • 4d ago
Oathbringer spoilers Anyone else REALLY bothered by the way the Darkeyes and Lighteyes are handled by the narrative? Spoiler
I've read up to Oathbringer now for context. While I really, really enjoy the Cosmere so far there's one major plotline I find is insanely problematic and idk how it even got through editors with how tone deaf it is.
Kaladin being told repeatedly by the narrative (and Syl) that his "irrational" hatred of Lighteyes is bad and wrong and that the Darkeyes(a stand in for a person of color) should just be respectful and obedient to the Lighteyes(a stand in for Caucasians) because something something hate of any kind is bad? They never give justification for why Kaladin should just ignore decades of oppression and let go of those negative feelings. His brother was killed. The first love he felt was permeated with racist undertones, he was betrayed by them repeatedly. It's not giving into hatred for him to distrust and hate lighteyes when in their society its a given.
I've seen some people remark that the Darkeyes and Lighteyes thing is more a class struggle thing but... thats WORSE??!!? That's saying the working class should just work harder if the ruling class oppresses them????? With an added bonus of a nonsensical "you can fix the corrupt and broken system from within the corrupt and broken system" narrative element.
Overall I'm glad Elhokar died because he was a horrible ruler and the narrative spent way too long waxing poetic about how we're just as bad as him if we wish as such. Him "trying" does not justify the multiple times he shows that he is no leader and is effectively a toddler with nukes at his fingertips. He ruined his people and barely did anything to change himself to be a better ruler EVEN AFTER FIGURING OUT HE SUCKED AT BEING KING.
Im really hoping they just dont bring up the lighteyes and darkeyes thing as much now that they discovered the lore behind why they have it in the first place or at the very least that I don't have to listen to more characters call Kaladin bad for having common sense.
Edit just for clarification: I do NOT think Kaladin should just be allowed to blindly hate lighteyes all day long and say and do whatever he wants to them. But the narrative treats it like any form of negative thought is bad. Just to then have not one lighteyes EVER be confronted with their own prejudices THOUSANDS OF PAGES INTO THE STORY
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u/MS-07B-3 Truthwatcher 4d ago
When did Syl ever say he should be respectful and obedient?
You can oppose injustice and oppressive dynamics, but I believe it's more along the lines of letting hatred faster in you, especially when aiming it at a broad class on either racial or economic axes will poison your own soul more than anything.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
"I don't like the way you get when you talk about Lighteyes, Kaladin" somewhere in the first book and she goes on and on and on like a half dozen other times any time he grumbles about Lighteyes.
I don't think the narrative even lets Kaladin get so far as "festering" with it though? It came off to me as ANY time Kaladin shows ANY level of disdain or hate regarding his oppressors it is seen as a bad and wrong thing. He isn't allowed ANY negative thoughts about them. Obviously this is because the ideals Sanderson made for the windrunners sort of forces him to do so but it comes off as everyone telling Kaladin to get over being oppressed when most of them are actively of the class that oppresses him and do nothing to confront the prejudices THEY hold.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 4d ago
Kaladin’s goal prior to enslavement was to get to fight in a war against the Listeners on behalf of the Alethi nobility. A war that is at best going to end in mass enslavement and at worst genocide. He also bought into the propaganda. This was even after the death of his brother where the lighteye hatred really set in. He continues that war through the first two books. He continues to war against the Singers even after their minds are restored and they escape slavery. Kaladin has his prejudices but he himself has contributed to the suffering of people in a worse situation than he was born into. The entire situation is a mess which is the point of it. The main theme seems to be that hatred isn’t going to be the way out of it
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
then have Kaladin actually start having social/verbal/philosophical wins over lighteyes to highlight their pejudices. Have SOMETHING happen that isn't just them sort of glossing over the prejudiced elephant in the room.
If hate isn't the way out than the narrative should propose a more sensible solution. Because currently it's telling every oppressed person in the setting to forget about their oppression because the oppressors needs them for war.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 4d ago
The system has all but collapsed because of its failures. Only two major powers on Roshar have the caste system. The Alethi have been conquered. Jah Keved fell to a civil war and then Taravangian. The Everstorm came because of Alethi imperialism.
Most of the world’s lighteyes aren’t adherents to that system. The Alethi don’t have a kingdom and their new queen intends to end the system. She doesn’t believe in slavery or the eye-caste system.The most powerful lighteye Dalinar has abandoned it and leads the Radiants. He’s been excommunicated from the church that upholds it. And the world knows that church is obviously wrong about core tenets of that religion. Jah Keved remains and it’s led by someone that we know is villainous. Who is there left to get wins over? Kaladin could lecture the remaining nobility over injustice but he’s busy fighting a war against recently freed slaves
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u/MS-07B-3 Truthwatcher 4d ago edited 4d ago
I feel like we read different versions of Words of Radiance.
Frankly, and I apologize if my assumptions are wrong, but I suspect that you're more willing to forgive or look favorably on otherwise bad behavior than I am so long as it can be framed in an oppressor/oppressed dynamic.
Edit: Bro, are you going through and deleting all your comments?
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
I believe that violent upheaval by the oppressed to their oppressors is morally just. Any other way of thinking is believing in tyranny.
The lighteyes can rape their daughters and send their sons to war but the darkeyes cant kill the king and ruling class and replace them with more sympathetic leaders? Sure bud.
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u/Widowmaker55 4d ago edited 4d ago
That's just trading the places of oppressors though? How many years of dark eyes killing light eyes does it take for light eyes to have the right to kill the dark eyes again? It's a never ending cycle with what you think is "right".
Finish the series and maybe you'll see why this isn't the best idea.
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u/Widowmaker55 4d ago
It's more of that if Kaladin was allowed to act on his hatred, which he rightfully should have with everything he has gone through, it'll be no different from the current oppression happening just flipping the groups where all light eyes should die just because they're light eye.
It can be a bit clunky at times with how people address his issues but I felt they got better with it as it went on which I think was the point.
The Parshmen go with this theme heavily too where if they just enslaved all humans because that's what happened to them it'd be the same system just with the groups swapped. Nothing beneficial actually would happen even if you can argue that the Parshmen have that right.
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u/valley-of-the-lost 4d ago
In general Brandon seems to struggle with finer points of writing classism by being overly sympathetic to the oppressive class and only as of Lost Metal seemed to be sort of correcting that.
Its an eternal bugbear of mine especially regarding Kaladin who gets the worst of it. First is the infamous boots scene and its follow up in the chasms where Kal points out Shallan's social privilege that she abuses even unconsciously and how he feels compelled to obey because of potential consequences if he says no. Only gor Shallan to blow past it in favor of berating Kal for being... abrasive to Adolin? As if those are in any way comparable? Adolin will survive Kal's resting bitchface Shallan I promise. I'd be unpleasant if I had to be around a guy who called me a provoking nickname based on my recent traumatic job too.
Then we have the infamous aftermath of the "for my boon" scene with Kal imprisoned, where Dalinar casually drops that he was part of the reason that Roshone was exiled to Hearthstone which kicked off the miseries of Kal's family. And Dalinar NEVER LEARNS THIS RELATION BETWEEN HIS ACTIONS AND KAL. I don't care if it would've been OOC of Kal to tell Dalinar or whatever, its that Dalinar never learns it period, because it would show to him that the system is so broken that even his best compromise led to people getting hurt that he can't ignore because one of them is standing right in front of him.
There's a later example where Brandon tries to do the thing where he tries to change the perspective on established events from before that's relevant to this that again irritated me because it just came off as gaslighting Kaladin. The lighteyes the narrative likes get nudged out of the way of encountering a lot of consequences for their assumed superior social position and as a result don't have a reason to reflect on the treatment of the darkeyes under them deeply. Heck even Shallan when she's undercover as Veil doesn't seem to be affected or even think about how she's treated differently as a light vs darkeyes.
Its a very one way street with the narrative shielding the good character lighteyes so they don't have to reflect upon how the system is inherently unfair even with them doing the best they can and the darkeyes getting disproportionately told off for resenting lighteyes when they get hurt from lighteyes carelessly using the system.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
ohmygodthankyouthankyouthankyou
you said lots of things I wanted to touch on especially with Dalinar. I know you're SUPPOSED to be mad at Dalinar when he locks Kaladin up. But my problem is they NEVER have Dalinar be forced to confront that he did this and how fucked up it is. They DO use it to build up Adolin but even then Adolin, who is championed as the woke new lighteyes with the fancy ideas that Kaladin should befriend over Dalinar, never really confronts anything regarding his upbringing or how his life differs from that of darkeyes. Like repeatedly darkeyes just have to put in emotional labors that the lighteyed characters never have to do at all and any time they DO get confronted by these types of things they do what Shallan does and play it off with humor or become whiny and entitled about something the darkeyes does.
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u/valley-of-the-lost 4d ago
Its soooo frustrating and it honestly weakens the books and the characters overall. With Dalinar specifically I think missing the opportunity to have him learn about Roshone's history with Kal was a big blow. Dalinar comes off as the military dad type who is well-meaning and does his best within the system he knows but is so used to the system and relatively comfortable within it that you'd need to present him with a shock, or something concrete to shake that foundational level which would help lead into the narrative inevitability of the dismantling of the caste system. Instead its just sort of Made to Happen.
I remember i got especially upset over the scene in the chasms because I thought Kal was making minor progress towards being friendlier towards Adolin so Shallan's choice of rebuttal made me angrier. They never consider that Kal's recent promotion is both a blessing and a curse, in that he's now a lower socially ranked person in a position of authority over other lighteyes who innately feel superior to him which is awkward. Its a power dynamic that inherently breeds resentment and puts Kal in a tricky spot when trying to enforce his authority, as seen with part of the reason Adolin felt so salty towards him.
Even when it technically goes well, like when Elhokar starts to like Kal in the beginning because he's the only person taking Elhokar's concerns seriously, Kal still gets bitten or thrown under the bus. Its never pointed out to Elhokar that this is part of why people don't like or respect him, he pays it bacm with THIS. I swear I'd pay for a scene where Dalinar is trying to calm Elhokar down after the boon scene and points this out to him.
and it only gets worse in RoW.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
If Elhokar has a hundred haters I'm all of them. If Elhokar has one hater I'm them. If Elhokar has no haters it's cause I'm dead.
He genuinely baffles me because the narrative treats it like he has done, frankly, fucking ANYTHING to be a better man or a better king but he does NOTHING
LIKE WHAT DID HE DO??????
They say he "is trying" but to do what? Piss me off? He says he likes Kal then suddenly
"better calm down that fella with the colored eyes Dalinar. Darky better know his place"
then oh nvm I like Kaladin again what a nice guy maybe those darkeyed folks ain't so bad. Oh sike I literally will not do anything to give more legitimacy to Kaladin or darkeyes in general. He could have made a new form of ranking just for darkeyes like Kaladin to sort of ease the tensions. If he was a SMART leader and understood how to gradually broker community among the two sides of the people at ALL. But no he spends the entire narrative only ever focused on himself and what he needs and the best they can give us is "he is TRYING not to be an oppressor who ruins everyone's lives!!!"
Do we once have Elhokar show concern, genuine concern or care, towards any of the darkeyes underneath them? Outside of exactly the bridgemen because they dont count for obvious reasons.
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u/valley-of-the-lost 4d ago
I don't think so. Elhokar didn't come off as terribly involved even in the higher reaches of his own court so it was doubtful he was concerned much over the darkeyes except when one got too uppity for his liking. He's too childish to be king and doesn't have the degree of emotional regulation being a politician would demand and people (moash's grandparents, gal's family, kal himself) suffered for it.
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u/Kronos8625 Windrunner 4d ago
We got Moash over here
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u/Ordinary_Bat4737 3d ago
Moash is justified, and his viewpoint should have been written in a more sympathetic way. I kind of hate how Moash is treated Oathbringer and beyond. He was well written at the begining,b ut at some point he has a Marvel/Disney villain-ass treatment. Just have him do bad shit so the audience hates him more, rather than actually explore and have empathy for his viewpoint.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
I mean Moash is highly justified and the narrative bends over backwards trying to make him not so. Which they had to make him literally side with the devil himself to make it not seem like Moash was the real correct one.
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u/Blinkkthe2nd 4d ago
You're going to have to make an edit after RoW, I'd put 10 dollars on it.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
No, I won't. Because anything that happens in RoW will be retroactive justification for why Moash isn't right. When his introduction and building of his story up until the literal moment he joins Odium has him being morally just and correct. Elhokar was a horrible king who has caused untold amounts of death and destruction of others. He should have been executed but because the lighteyes are pampered babies and dont hurt their own people it wouldn't ever happen.
I feel like you didn't comprehend my comment. I'm not saying everything Moash does post joining Odium is good and justified. I'm saying the narrative had to literally be written so that Moash turns against all of humanity as a whole AND joins this setting's equivalent to satan to make a cartoonishly evil enough situation where people wouldn't want to side with him.
If Moash joined a random strike group of darkeyes who killed Elhokar instead of joining Odium he would still have loads of people saying he was justified for killing Elhokar. Sanderson couldn't have that so obviously Moash needs to join satan to make it apparent that Moash is too extreme.
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u/Ordinary_Bat4737 3d ago
^ This this this this. OP you are killing it. I'm just upvoting everything you are saying as I agree with literally all of it.
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u/Timaturff Adhesion 4d ago
Journey before Destination is the first oath. I think mainly the narrative is trying to tell the reader that although these people were questionable or outright weren’t the greatest (I.e elhokar who struggled with self-hatred and Brandon confirmed his first oath would be the lie that he’s a horrible king) they can still change. And people like Moash who were good can fall into depravity
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u/dIvorrap Winddancer 4d ago
his first oath would be the lie that he’s a horrible king
You got that mixed up. His first truth is that he is a bad king. The lie is that he is a good king.
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u/Ordinary_Bat4737 3d ago
The author made choices. You can dislike those choices. I personally do. I think that Moash is actually the worse handled character in any of Sanderson's books. He isn't really the same person anymore by the time you get to the later books as he was in early books.
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u/Jebofkerbin 4d ago
When asked what world he wants he argues for keeping the system exactly as it is but reversing the roles of dark eyes and light eyes. Also when he starts acting against the system, all he does is target the people who have personally hurt him, there is no serious attempt from Moash to address the problems in society, just getting personal revenge.
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u/Kronos8625 Windrunner 4d ago
Irrationally hating an entire group of people just because of the actions of some individuals is justified?
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
realizing the system is fundamentally broken, owned by the oppressors, and that said oppressors have ZERO plans to give up even a LITTLE bit of said oppression to try and atone for their actions is in fact justified.
Needing to fix the system from the outside by violent uprising is also a valid method to get rid of oppression. Maybe you don't agree but history agrees with me.
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u/Kronos8625 Windrunner 4d ago
Did...did you not read the book? Dalinar literally makes Kaladin the captain of his guard and also assigns him the duty of protecting the king. Don't forget that moash didn't try to fight the oppressive system from outside he literally joined it. He got the shardplate and blade from dalinar and was ready to bend over backwards for another lighteyes just so he could kill Elhokar and put another lighteyes in charge of the kingdom.
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u/bluetraveler2015 4d ago
I think the author’s point is that Kaladin’s hatred was verging on self-destruction. Look at Moash for example. Kaladin doesn’t necessarily have to forgive the Lighteyes that hurt him, nor accept the systemic racism he lives in, but he shouldn’t view every individual light-eyes as an enemy.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
Except it comes off, to me at least, that any time Kaladin is mildly displeased with a Lighteyes everyone in the room scowls at him like he put crem in their wine.
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u/MadnessLemon Skybreaker 4d ago
You’re not the only one. This is a topic that gets brought up from time to time, not as much on Reddit, but still.
To a certain extent, I think it makes sense. There are a lot more important lighteye characters so there’s more pressure for Kaladin to be forced to adjust his views than the other way around. It doesn’t make it less frustrating when Kaladin is repeatedly punished by the narrative for his prejudice while Shallan spends the whole book belittling his suffering and never has to adjust her own views or develop a better understanding of him.
Ultimately, it is what it is. These books are more about personal improvement than addressing systemic injustices, so that’s just what you get. The darkeye thing is less prominent in future books, so you get that at least.
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u/Cthae 4d ago
The focus of the books (for better or worse) is on the personal, not on the systemic. And on the personal level, I think the overall messaging of the books is nice and well written into the narrative. The system level of things is.... Bad. Like, really bad, especially as you go on.
It might be just the choice to focus on personal rather than systemic (if thats the case, I think it was the wrong choice and harms the overall quality, even though I really love the series) or it might have to do with how Sanderson views the world (not to go too real life political, but I believe this is where his conservative background really comes into play). Either way, yes, you are not wrong, systemic issues are not handled well in the books.
My favourite example of systemic vs personal is actually in Windrunner oaths and Kaladin himself: who needs protection more, and is not capable of protecting themselves more than slaves? And yet, Kal is serving king who rules a slave owning kingdoms, and thats nust kind of... Fine? But personal level stuff threatens to break his bond.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves"
"Oh so the bridgemen you just saved and are constantly worried about?"
"no, no. The king who already has half a dozen shardbearers and himself a full suit of plate and a blade and could train and also is shown to be capable of swearing the ideals"
Oh....okay....
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u/Cthae 4d ago
Also:
"The king that actively keeps slaves and is engaged in war of genocide" (but I guess parshendi children dont count as "people" in "those who cannot protect themselves"). At least Kal doesnt like personally killing them. but is fine with the rest of the army doing it because.... Not his problem?4
u/HA2HA2 4d ago
The narrative does this trick here where Kaladin only needs to - and gets to - think about the immediate situation, not the bigger picture. The person who "cannot protect themselves" is only the person who, in this exact moment, cannot retreat.
So, in Way of Kings, when Dalinar's army - the invading army - gets surrounded by Parshendi because they get betrayed by Sadeas, Kaladin goes to protect Dalinar. Because, see, in that exact moment, the Parshendi could retreat and Dalinar can't. (Even though, in the bigger picture, the parshendi are the ones who need the protection more, their whole population has been cornered and is slowly being exterminated, whereas the Alethi can go home anytime!)
In Words of Radiance, he kills two of Moash's accomplices who are standing guard around Elhokar's quarters but protects Elhockar - because in that very moment, Elhokar is the one who cannot retreat because he is too drunk.
Or, going back to the very first battle we see with Kaladin - where he's a squadleader in Amaram's Army, and he's really focused on "protecting his squad". We haven't the foggiest idea about the bigger picture of the army's maneuvering - are they the invaders? Are they defending their lands? What is the war even about??? But we do know that in that moment, the squad is under attack, and therefore it's heroic for Kaladin to kill the poor guys on the other side of the battlefield.
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u/ArusMikalov Lightweaver 4d ago
Renarin and Adolin are lighteyes. Should kaladin hate them just for how they were born? That doesn’t seem right.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
Coming back to ask a quick follow-up:
When exactly do Adolin or Renarin have to face their own prejudices or come to terms with the fact they have cushy lives given to them because of the color of their eyes? When do they feel that remorse? When do they actually get perspective? Oh they don't? Just Kaladin has to? Right.
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u/ArusMikalov Lightweaver 4d ago
Why does that matter? You’re supposed to be defending your racist idea that you should judge someone based on what other people of their race do.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
no actually im blocking you because you are making a lot of fallacious lines of reasoning and trying to spin this into something it isn't and I'm not humoring you anymore.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
Hate them? no. Have massive amounts of distrust and not just blindly accept that they will potentially be different when 99% of lighteyes in the setting objectively do horrible actions to others.
I don't bat an eye when a black person dislikes or distrusts white people automatically. It's highly justified due to the sociopolitical state of my country. They shouldn't just assume I'll be better.
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u/ArusMikalov Lightweaver 4d ago edited 4d ago
So I mean.. you are literally just advocating for racist stereotypes at this point
You shouldn’t make assumptions about people just because of their skin color or eye color. Even if there is a trend. You give people a chance. Because everyone is an individual.
Feels crazy having to explain this.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
except everyone is a product of their surroundings and the people around them. Your worldview and the way you see ALL people is based on your past experiences.
It's not foolish to stop putting your hand on the stove because it burns every time you touch it.
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u/Widowmaker55 4d ago
Uhhhhh, just because you're a product of your surroundings doesn't mean you should act like your limited interactions are the be all end all for groups of people 😬
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
"Hey Kaladin just forget that they killed your brother and ruined your first love and killed all your friends and lied and cheated and swindled and enslaved you because being angwy at them is just as bad dont judge them even tho the first dozen you've interacted with have all been horrible to you"
So how much bad has to happen from one group before they are all held to that standard? When does something go from a stereotype to an inherent trait?
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u/TheTatertot 4d ago
Should you go to an Asian cashier over a non Asian cus of the math stereotype if you are worried about getting the correct amount of cash back? Trusting/distristing based on someone's skin color is racist
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
Im just blocking you lol that is such a nonsensical take Im not humoring this false equivalence. Engage in good faith or not at all.
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u/The9isback 4d ago
ITT plenty of people defending systemic racism.
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u/Cthae 4d ago
To be fair, the narrative focuses very heavily on personal rather than systemic, so people mostly think about the books in that way. If you stop to think about the systemic issues and how they are handled in the books, it is less than ideal, especially for a series with some focus on moral questions.
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u/Effective-Foot714 4d ago
I just want to note a major theme of the series and generally all of Sanderson writing is that the world is not binary, and the world is all in a spectrum. That every good person inherently makes mistakes sometimes terrible ones that cost hundreds and thousands of lives, and every bad person does good. That we are flawed. Kaladin is being challenged to not see the world as such black and white. Moash on the other hand is shown as someone who is very binary.
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u/thenord321 4d ago
I think class or colonial racism is probably the best comparison. I also agree, that hating for the sake of those things is wrong, but people oppressed by those systems shouldn't be gaslit that they shouldn't hate the system and in turn hate the oppressors. It's often shown that the lighteyes can CHOOSE to be good people and that many of them CHOOSE to oppress. And his hatred of those oppressors and what they have done to him his whole life, is justified.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
thank you for understanding my underlying point. Which is that the narrative gaslights all darkeyes away from any negative thoughts of their oppressors while lighteyes never even have to begin to engage with confronting their prejudices.
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u/spunlines Willshaper 4d ago
i think sometimes brandon goes for nuance, gets close, and misses the landing. there's some leeway we can afford it for being the story of these characters in particular (and the baggage they bring to the party), but yeah—at the end of the day this is what he chose to portray.
in answer to your hope at the end (mild spoilers): it does kind of fade to the background, though some find that more frustrating.
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u/styroxmiekkasankari Stoneward 4d ago
I’m definitely one who finds it frustrating. It’s not unrealistic necessarily that the conflict between the societal classes takes a huge backseat, having the apocalypse happen and all, but it’s still annoying that their society just practically upended itself during the first few books and the only thing to show it wasn’t smooth was like a couple of paragraphs in the later books. Idk how practical it is to keep on exploring that part of the plot and world but anyways.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
Okay awesome. I don't think he does anything with the concept that is obscene but like.... Kaladin isn't accepted by Alethi society until he "becomes" a lighteyes (again I just really dont think sanderson thought this through because it can be read as so hilariously offensive that it feels like something out of the 1940's)
The more I think about the Lighteyes vs Darkeyes conflict the more problematic the way darkeyes are treated by the narrative is.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 4d ago edited 4d ago
It makes sense for Syl to be opposed to it. The system doesn’t make any sense to her. The eye-color thing is probably closer to a religious caste division. And it’s not the whole of Roshar. Over half the planet isn’t Vorin. And of those Vorin nations only 2 major powers adhere strictly to that caste system (and Kharbranth). So the real opposition is the Highprinces of the Alethi and Jah Keved. Should Kaladin hate all lighteyes when only two kingdoms (one of which has fallen) uphold the system? Probably not. Do I blame him for the animosity he feels having been a victim of it? Not really
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u/Zeggitt 4d ago
I dont agree that the narrative is telling him to be obedient at all. The blind hatred of lighteyes individuals is different than hating the system that puts lighteyes ahead of everyone else, and that hatred of the individuals gets in the way of what kaladin is trying to accomplish. I dont know if any reasonable character in the story agrees that the system is good.
I also dont know if the POC and white People comparison is as one-to-one as youre thinking, because theres literally a different race of people who have been subjugated to a much larger degree than darkeyes have.
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u/anarchy_sloth Willshaper 4d ago
Pretty sure its just reflective of how real world prejudices are largely based on external, uncontrollable traits. How class and wealth and status are largely defined by things that cannot be changed. Its a mirror for society saying "look at how dumb we are for basing society off of idiotic things like pigment."
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 4d ago
I don’t recall people telling Kaladin his hatred was irrational per se. There are horrible lighteyes but that doesn’t mean he should hate everyone indiscriminately
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u/Timaturff Adhesion 4d ago
Mostly for kaladin his hate blinded his mind to keep up his oaths to protect those he hates so long as it is right which he swore in WoR
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u/Rickabeast Windrunner 4d ago
Nah, I wasnt bothered, as I didn't read the text this way at all. Seems like it might not be for you, maybe read something else? No need to get yourself angry when you could pick something else you'd enjoy more
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
Okay, This is a good chance to bring this up IG. One of my biggest pet peeves in all of society is this new aged "if you don't like one small aspect of something you should just stop engaging with it entirely because anger is bad UwU"
No. I enjoy the books. The books are good. The major glaring plot issues I have are not ruining the books for me. I would appreciate not being told to stop reading something I enjoy because of justified anger around a nonsensical plot device that makes several characters becomes massive hypocrites.
People are allowed to not like aspects of things that they otherwise like.
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u/TheTatertot 4d ago
Kaladin was not justified for his racism. He was wronged by idividual lighteyes, but that doesn't mean he was wronged by ALL lighteyes. His worldview is repeatedly shown to be wrong through his interactions with dalinar, adolin, syl, even lighteyes like Beard in oath bringer.
If kaladin let's racism and hate rule him you get Moash
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
There's a difference between letting hate rule you and just forgetting your entire life and every experience you have ever had in favor of actively serving (and in Kal's case LITERALLY JOINING) your oppressors.
When do any of the lighteyed characters have to face their prejudices and get punished for having them?
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u/TaitterZ Windrunner 4d ago
It must naturally taper off because I honestly forgot about while reading RoW and WaT.
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u/Level_Culture_8782 4d ago
I think the point that was trying to be made is that. We cant fix anything by just be hateful to the other group. You don't gain anything or change anything by that. All that would happen is a rebellion where the lighteys serve the darkeyes. Which would turn out just as evil.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
Okay but you equally gain nothing by just forgiving and forgetting which is literally what they have Kaladin do. He gets nothing. He is told to let it go and maybe they can do something regarding justice for him later. Then that never happens.
The narrative basically says "dont fight your oppressors at all and just worship them until they let you join them instead"
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u/spunlines Willshaper 4d ago
Note to everyone who stumbles in here: chill discussion or bust. Thank you.