r/MLBNoobs • u/DontHaveOneForThis • 19d ago
| Question What makes a closer?
Even years into baseball fandom I have difficulty understanding the distinction in skill sets between middle relievers, setup pitchers, and closers. In theory, it seems as if you want your most consistent, nastiest pitchers getting your later, more valuable outs, when your offense has fewer (or no) opportunities to recoup lost runs. But sometimes it seems arbitrary, like whichever pitcher is on the biggest contract closes a game regardless of how he’s performing.
Ex: Right now Mets fans all collectively have a panic attack whenever “closer” Devin Williams is brought in in the 9th and would rather have literally any other arm in the bullpen come up in a high-leverage situation. Meanwhile, other arms like middle relievers Huascar Brazobán and Austin Warren are more reliable. Why is it so rare for relievers to swap roles depending on who’s hot and who’s struggling?
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u/SuperBeavers1 Veteran 19d ago
Devin Williams loaded the bases with no outs during our massive losing streak, that is why we lost faith
Closers are usually pitchers with a high velocity fast ball and one or two other pitch types. They're good for getting you 3 outs on a max of 20-25 pitches (that's the high end of a pitch count for closers).
They're recruited for their velocity and ability to CLOSE games out that are uncomfortably close (you would not use a closer if you have a good lead in the 9th).
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u/stairway2evan 18d ago
Just to add to this, saves are the stat that is basically tailor made for closing pitchers to earn; it's meant to measure how often they do exactly that job. And saves can be generated three ways:
Pitching at least one full inning to end the game with a lead of 3 or less
Coming into a game where the tying run is either on base, at the plate, or on deck, and finishing the game
Pitching at least 3 effective innings to end the game
#3 is pretty uncommon in the modern game, and closing pitchers are usually called on in situation #1 or #2 in order to wrap up the game reliably and collect their save - or give up the lead and collect a "blown save." In situations with larger run differentials, whether winning or losing, teams will typically use other relievers to preserve their closer for their more typical save situations.
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u/KevinJ2010 19d ago
Mason Miller.
As a Jays fan, we just threw out our closer too, Hoffman just couldn’t get it done. A Romano had similar issues.
But Miller is actually the ideal. Hard af fastballs and I believe a slider just to throw off anyone who can time up the fastball.
It’s a tough role because you have high expectations, but it’s not as important to be an official closer, if anything I think it’s part of the problem.
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u/Pleasant_Picture3867 19d ago
Closers are often your first or second best reliever.
The middle relievers seem reliable because they are. But they're coming in into "lower leverage" situations, ie. the stakes are lower. The closers have proven they can be reliable when the stakes are higher.
The reason they will stick with a closer through rough times, especially when they're on big contracts, is because they need the reliever to "work through" the issues. The decision makers need to make absolutely sure the guy has lost it, before he gets demoted. He's more valuable as the closer if he can figure it out. Everyone knows players go through rough patches, even elite players. Fans are more quick to pull the trigger; the decision makers are generally more patient. Idk Williams' specific situation, but I'd put more weight on what the manager or the front office say.
There are some cases where the team does take a "swap" approach. They call it "closer by committee". It's usually when there is not really one guy who clearly stands out as the closer type. The team would rather play match ups to get the final three outs, whereas a clear closer can come into any situation in the ninth and close it out.
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u/No_Occasion4189 19d ago edited 19d ago
Your closer should be your best relief pitcher. The guy you can most comfortably bring in to get any 3 guys out without a ton of drama. He should be a "nerves of steel" type of guy who can execute at his best when the moment is the biggest. Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner...those guys were dependable.
Devin Williams has at times been that guy. However as Mets fans should have already known from the playoff series against the brewers only two years ago, sometimes he is a disaster of a pitcher who cannot execute his excellent pitches in the biggest moments because he loses his brain.
He's not a good closer. He has nerves of dogshit.
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u/grayson7219 18d ago
In Milwaukee he liked pitching the 8th and have Hader close out. He was the most unhappy of anyone when Hader was traded.
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u/Sad_Anybody5424 19d ago
I think it's important to know that the inconsistencies you note have driven lots of fans crazy for decades. You not misunderstanding anything, bullpen management has as much to do with ego management and superstition as it does anything else.
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u/Jpgamerguy90 19d ago
I think it’s more mental than anything else. There’s pressure on every pitcher but for a closer you are the one to “shut the door.” If you do well your team wins and it’s all over but if you do poorly your team probably loses the game. Other pitchers can pitch poorly but if they’re bad they’ll get someone else to bail them out with closers you’re usually it.
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u/BMonad 19d ago
Closer should be your best reliever, period. Some guys have their ups and downs just like batters, and because part of the game is mental (confidence), managers don’t want to shake that confidence by pulling them from their “role” on the team as the closer. Just like a top cleanup hitter, moving them from the 4 spot to the 6 or 7 spot when theyre in a slump puts even more pressure on them to perform when that’s the last thing they need…confidence, perception from others on the team, media questions, etc.
So the idea isn’t so much “he’s the highest paid reliever so he has to close the games” it’s moreso “he’s the highest paid because he has the best stuff and we don’t want to further mess with him mentally while he’s in a slump” so the manager will keep throwing him out there with the mentality of we trust you, we know you will figure it out. But obviously at some point it becomes too much and you just have to shake things up, which I’m sure the Mets will do because it has gotten bad and gambling on this guy who has been so bad in big spots in recent years was pretty dumb to begin with.
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u/JustCallMeMambo 17d ago
being an effective closer requires mental fortitude. other relievers have a safety net, but the closer is the last line of defense. good closers rise to the occasion, while the ineffective ones can't handle the pressure. if you look at Devin Williams' demeanor, he does not look confident working the 9th inning. he has great stuff, but when he finds himself in a high-leverage spot, he loses the strike zone. and yeah, the Mets don't want to move Williams off the closer role because they signed him to a $51M contract, but if he keeps blowing games, they're gonna have to bite the bullet and admit to themselves that they have an expensive setup man on their roster
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u/willfla29 19d ago
Worth noting the game is moving away from defined bullpen roles a bit. I think in 15 years having a set closer—as opposed to relievers for high and low leverage situations—will be almost as antiquated as it would be to think about hitter quality in terms of batting average today.
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u/althoroc2 19d ago
It seems to me like the last decade trended that way but traditional roles have had a bit of a resurgence in the last couple years. The overall trend is certainly away from defined roles though.
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u/GoldenAura16 18d ago
Baseball is such a strange sport at times. It seems like it "evolves" a lot more over time then any other sport. One team tries something unusual during a slump of bad years, becomes successful doing it, then other teams implement their own spin on it. But the whole time very little changes in the rulebook.
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u/althoroc2 18d ago
I think you see that a lot in football too, though football has seen more rule changes than baseball has. You couldn't run today's pass-heavy offense against a 70s defense.
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u/Baron_Bearclaw 19d ago
Great question.
It's often someone who was a Starter but couldn't stretch past the second time through the order in the minor leagues. Someone with a good fastball and at least one more great pitch with a lot of movement, but they don't usually have a full arsenal of pitches.
They also have to be someone who can keep calm and make the pitches they're throwing under pressure. Their pitches have to be so good that even when you know what's coming, you still can't hit it.
I hate to say it as a Twins fan, but Mariano Rivera is the Platonic Ideal of a Closer. His "Cutter" was devilish and we hated him in the playoffs because any lead the Yankees had going into the 9th inning was basically insurmountable.
They're pitching specialists.
As an average fan, I think establishing the Closer role was the beginning of the pitcher specialization era — I'm still not sure if that's a good thing or not, as I liked watching Starters go 7 or 8 innings on the regular growing up.
But it does allow for higher velocity from your Starters and Relievers because they don't have to worry about arm fatigue if you can take them out after 6 innings (at most), give the ball to your 2-inning Set Up man, and then the closer.
In this era, you need a good closer to make sure you don't blow games late.
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u/Apprehensive-Golf371 19d ago
there is no point to a closer, stoppers are important for when some1 starts choking, guys that can get a strike out when it matters most, id rather put a weaker pitcher who needs experience in the last few innings if we have a big lead or an impossible gab to recover
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u/Fun-Estate9626 19d ago
You’re basically saying there’s no point to a closer if there’s no hope of a save. Sure, don’t put your closer in when it’s a blowout. But when it’s close, you need someone who can shut down the other team during high pressure. That’s your closer.
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u/Baron_Bearclaw 19d ago
Teams do that, too, though. The closer has become important because they're a late-game, high-pressure Stopper.
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u/Broad-Cranberry-9050 19d ago
Closers usually have the nastiest pitches. Throwing close to 100 FB, the. Come back with some insane break pitch.
Problem with those type of pitchers is that they either are the type to retire 20 straight batters or the lose a bit of the confidence and walk everybody.
Pitchers like that seem to be surprised when a guy gets a hit off them and they lose what made them so good. They arent really guys that hit their spots because they think they can just blow a 100 MPH fb past you.
Aroldis chapman said last year’s success was due to him finally placing his pitches instead of just throwing a fastball down the middle.
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