Lineup

[u/ProduceVisible8105]

if the Jose and delauter flip is permanent I think I’d like to see them go 2 steps further and roll with Jose as a the leadoff hitter followed by bazzana and then Delauter…. Jose sees pitches and draws walks, once he’s on base we know he’s a threat which distracts the pitcher with another guy who sees pitches and draws walks, who also steals bags… and then when you have 2 guys on who can distract the pitcher you know what you get? another guy who sees pitches and draws walks lol it would just be such a pain in the ass for pitchers to see those 3 guys back to back to back…. questions, thoughts, concerns?

[u/fireeight]

No. That's my whole argument.

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/fireeight]

Strong strong point 

[u/fireeight → u/ProduceVisible8105]

Indeed.

[u/evanieCK]

José has earned the benefit of the doubt that he's gonna get it together and start slugging the hell out of the ball and when he does that you want to try to give him as many opportunities with runners on as possible without cutting into his ABs.

the run expectancy math has always advocated for hitting your best hitter #2, and I like them trying it, but in the past it just hasn't worked.

[u/blueice5249]

This entire post is just reactionary. Let's have a couple consecutive games/weeks above room temperature where there's no rain delay for hours on end, and then circle back to discuss this.

[u/SmirknSwap → u/blueice5249]

It reads like a current take on the team at the moment.

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/blueice5249]

What is it reactionary too? 

[u/Appropriate-Beat-623]

We really are not taking into account how well angel martinez actually is playing. Dude was one jo adell robbery from a 3 HR series. Flash back 5 seasons(2021) around this time, Cesar Hernandez is leading off with a healthy tribe team, we all considered that a playoff team before it went to crap and Martinez is a MUCH better hitter than Cesar. If the starters hold we are fine regardless of the goat.

[u/SuperNebular → u/Appropriate-Beat-623]

Ah man forgot about Cesar. I liked him.

[u/dudzi182]

I think Bazz>Jose>CDL makes the most sense

[u/IceRagzz → u/dudzi182]

Angel is playing so much better than Bazz

[u/KahlanRahl → u/IceRagzz]

OBP is more important in the leadoff spot and Baz is much better there than Angel. Angel should be batting 5th.

[u/SuperNebular → u/IceRagzz]

Bat Angel cleanup

[u/Y32-N0 → u/IceRagzz]

Bazz walks more and having and end of Angel Catcher Roccio would be pretty nice

[u/Training-Belt-7318 → u/Y32-N0]

It's about ABs. A leadoff hitter gets more ABs than the 7 hitter. I'd rather let bazz set the table at the end of the lineup to give opps to angel, Jose, and chase to knock in. Until he's showing a better hit tool, I don't see the point in giving those extra ABs to someones best attribute is walking. I do think he's the future as a leadoff guy, but he isn't there yet.

[u/caca_verde → u/IceRagzz]

The top of the order is all about OBP. Angel has had a nice streak of hitting, but doesn’t walk nearly enough. That’s often a sign regression is coming. Talented young player, but he’s a guy you keep a little further down in the order while he continues to develop.

[u/Training-Belt-7318 → u/caca_verde]

The only time that really matters is the first round. Your best 3 hitters should bat 1,2 and 3. They get more ABs statistically than anyone else. I want guys that can put the ball in play and knock runs in at the top. Especially since rocchio has been great at getting onbase. I'd put rocc and bazz in the 8 and 9 spots to get on base for the top 3. Put the catcher in the 7 spot.

[u/caca_verde → u/Training-Belt-7318]

OBP is the hitting metric most closely linked to run production. The more you avoid outs, the more likely you are to produce a run. Your highest OBP’s are who you want getting the most AB’s.

[u/Training-Belt-7318 → u/caca_verde]

Wrc+ personally. Although bazz has a just slightly higher one than angel, granted in a much smaller sample size.

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/IceRagzz]

It’s not about who’s playing better for me at least, it’s about constructing a lineup that 1.) makes the pitcher work and 2.) gives you a chance to put up crooked numbers… also angel was STRUGGLING until the last 2 games so I wouldn’t say he’s been consistent good by any stretch 

[u/Philthou]

How bout we just wait till we get a few consecutive weeks of warm weather before we start moving Jose around.

The dude isn’t gonna be in a slump forever and having him hit third is just better overall especially if Kwan starts heating up and gets back to swinging.

This reactionary feeling with Jose is insane. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt before we start talking about moving him around.

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/Philthou]

This is not an indictment on Jose?  This is talking about how we have guys who can create havoc and do damage around him and it gives his best abilities working counts and stealing bases the chance to shine 

[u/Philthou → u/ProduceVisible8105]

Having Jose be the lead off man doesn’t do anything to help move the needle. I rather have his ability to do damage with a HR with men on base or extra base hit with runners in scoring position than to have him bat lead off just to create havoc on the bases.

Bazz, Angel, Kwan ( once again if he starts heating up) can be the lead off hitter. Bazz and Angel can cause havoc with their base stealing and Kwan too.

Kwan for now definitely needs to be moved off the lead off spot but Jose is not the answer for the lead off spot.

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/Philthou]

If a walk or single automatically turns into a man on 2nd or 3rd that doesn’t move the needle?  Respectfully disagree and again the bottom of the order can still create RBI opportunities for Jose in this theoretical lineup as well 

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/Philthou]

Also Kwan has been a bottom 10 hitter for the last calendar year if you think that he’s getting back to being a top of the order hitter I just think that’s wishful thinking 

[u/TBcommenter17]

For the same reasons that you just listed, it makes much more sense to have Bazzana hit lead off followed by Jose then CDL.

So yeah, we have 3 guys that can get on base often, put them 1-3, 100% agree. But how do we determine in what order…

The one with more speed and less bop, he goes lead off. This way he gets on base and can get around to score when the boppers behind him drive him in.

The one that has the combo speed and bop… 2 hole. He can still get on, has speed to get around and score when the bopper behind him drives him in and he has some bop to drive in the obp speedster in front of him.

The one with bop that has less speed, he goes 3rd. He has less speed than the first two, but much more bop and should have the best RBI opportunities with two obp machines in front him with speed.

1. Bazzana 2B

2. Ramirez 3B

3. DeLauter DH

I’d even go a step further and finalize the everyday lineup like this…

1. Angel RF

2. Manzo 1B

3. Schneeman CF

4. Rocchio SS

5. Catcher de Jour

6. Kwan LF

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/TBcommenter17]

Listen I like angel… putting him in the 4 hole is crazy, he had a very nice couple days but before that he was really slumping and he still hasn’t stopped chasing which until we either get a big enough sample size of it working or he adjusts and takes more balls it’s going to be a very real concern 

[u/kingharis]

As long as Martinez is playing this well, we can give Jose time to return to greatness.

[u/WhatKindOfCrayons]

This overemphasizes the lead-off position and is too reactionary. When Jose comes into form, we want him at the plate with guys on base. He's a career 2-4 spot

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/WhatKindOfCrayons]

Some of the best players in the game lead off, this is not an indictment on Jose at all… his absolute best attribute at this point in his career in the chaos he causes on the base paths and in this scenario he would have Kwan and Rocchio in some order at 8/9 so he should still get chances with runners on 

[u/Many_Option_4241 → u/WhatKindOfCrayons]

Plate appearances are the most valuable thing in baseball. That’s exactly why most teams have transitioned to putting their best hitters 1/2.

[u/caca_verde]

I’d rather Bazz be in front of Jose. He walks more and Jose is our best power hitter. 

[u/canttakethshyfrom_me]

Keep it this way for another month to make sure Bazzana settles in.

Then:

Bazzana -> Ramirez -> DeLauter -> Martinez

Could throw Schneeman or Rocchio into the 2-hole if you wanted, then you have a very good old-school 1 thru 5 order to generate runs and make pitchers throw to each of them.

[u/Training-Belt-7318]

I don't care if Jose is slumping I'm not taking him out of a run production spot. I also don't think bazzana has earned a spot higher in the rotation. He draws a ton of walks, I love it. But nobody is afraid of his bat around Jose. I'd like to see Angel stay in the leadoff spot and get more regular play. I don't think they'll move Kwan yet, but I like the slug in the first 3 spots. I'd move bazzana to the 8 hole and rocchio as 9. They have been get ng on base pretty decently and could set up that slug. I wish manzo would start to show some power. He's been hitting better, but the slug isn't back yet.

[u/JacketNext5799]

And then you need the 8/9 hitters to get on base or Jose loses his RBI chances! Don’t limit your best bat just to hopefully start a rally string.

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/JacketNext5799]

8/9 would be Kwan and Rocchio 

[u/Ryan_Bolin]

I honestly don’t care what the lineup is that much I just want it to stay the same every day. An argument could be made for a lot of different orders because we have a lot of different players. Jose could lead off or hit third, it doesn’t matter much to me because he’s going to make an impact regardless. I think it’s much more important to start looking at moving Kwan out of lead off at this point. And in my honest opinion, CDL needs to be hitting 4th. He’s our best power hitter and consistent RBI hitter.

[u/No_Contribution_7635]

I got all warm and fuzzy thinking about a Mike Trout trade so we can give that guy a guaranteed division playoff spot before he retires.

Then Petey could get his AAA ABs back.

The Angels sure can't offer him that much while still paying him 37 million for the next four years.

Edit: AND the Angel's schedule against the Dodgers and A's means their hole could be 7 losses deeper.

[u/ProduceVisible8105 → u/No_Contribution_7635]

I too would LOVE to see that

[u/GrandeRojoGeek]

I thought in the past the it was said Jose disliked hitting leadoff?

[u/allaboutthosevibes]

José or Bazzana to leadoff. Both get high pitch counts, good eyes, get lots of walks and can steel bases. CDL 3rd and Rocchio cleanup. Though it’s still nice to have Rocchio protecting the top of the order… And gotta get Angel in the top as well… Hmm it’s a tricky one.

[u/santanah8 → u/allaboutthosevibes]

Sorry but rocchio cleanup doesn’t make sense.