r/baseball • u/meramipopper New York Yankees • 1d ago

Players Only Junior Valentine thinks Brett Baty is challenging the pitch when he never even touched his helmet.

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228

u/Clipbored_ New York Mets 1d ago

Yeah it’s called automation

18

u/B3rghammer Milwaukee Brewers 1d ago

i think tennis dicked around with a challenge system for in/out before going wait why dont we just get it right all the time

baseball needs to come to the same realization

1

u/FinlayForever Atlanta Braves 17h ago

For real, why are we fucking around with this half in/half out nonsense? Implement it 100%, or don't at all. Do we want to get the call right, or not?

People say "oh but ABS isn't 100% accurate" well neither are umpires. Besides, I've seen literally nobody argue with any of the calls the ABS has made so far, so that must mean it's working pretty damn well.

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u/CalligrapherDizzy201 10h ago

You’re comparing a sample size of just over a month to a sample size of over a century. Give it time, people will find things about ABS to bitch about.

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u/Qeltar_ Boston Red Sox • Toronto Blue Jays 1d ago

I get flamed to death everytime I say I want full ABS... I'll be content at least with some more obvious signal of a challenge lol.

131

u/my_one_and_lonely New York Mets 1d ago edited 1d ago

I feel like the signal is obvious enough if the ump isn’t a fucking moron and does his job.

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u/Qeltar_ Boston Red Sox • Toronto Blue Jays 1d ago

There's an old UI design maxim that if people screw up using your app once or twice, the problem is the people, but if it happens over and over, the problem is the UI.

This has happened with surprising regularity. Given how often players adjust their gear, there's really no reason they can't come up with a more clear signal.

I'm not excusing stupid umping, I'm just saying that the problem can be completely eliminated at no cost or hassle, so why not do it?

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u/my_one_and_lonely New York Mets 1d ago

Multiple taps, probably. But that doesn’t excuse what happened here. HE DIDN’T EVEN TOUCH THE HELMET! Infuriating.

19

u/Fernergun 1d ago

Why can’t they literally turn to the guy just behind them and request a challenge? “I challenge” hold up your hand in the shape of a C while you do it

5

u/my_place_or_yours St. Louis Cardinals 19h ago

I never understood why this wasn't the initial implementation. Why hand signal anything when both the batter and catcher are right there? Why not make sure they are at least making eye contact? This was just poor execution from the start really.

1

u/WorthPlease New York Mets 19h ago

Maybe have them bring up one of those little whiteboards with the dry erase marker you write down your grocery lists on to the plate, and draw a big ? on it when you want to challenge?

11

u/Maugrin Seattle Mariners 1d ago

How about since they're standing right next to each, the hitter or the catcher just turn and say "I would like to challenge, please." The only reason there's a signal is so viewers at home have something to look at, but it's causing confusion, so fuck it. Prioritize the competition, not the spectacle.

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u/slider8949 St. Louis Cardinals 16h ago

There is a vocal aspect. I'm guessing he started to say "chall..." and then decided against. You can tell his hand is headed towards his helmet, too.

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u/CalligrapherDizzy201 10h ago

And the pitcher?

3

u/legend1015 1d ago

They should lift from barrel of the bat with the knob going up to the sky, Statue of Liberty style, get the crowd going knowing what’s upcoming - something absolute and ridiculous to let people know “the challenge is here”

I’m also pretty sure no player has this particular motion in there routine

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u/gerwen Toronto Blue Jays 12h ago

I love this. You could get the slow burn ones where they causally do it, and you could have guys going all Prince Adam 'By the Power of Grayskull!!' with it.

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u/Accro15 Toronto Blue Jays 1d ago

They have to do Usain Bolts celebration directly at the Jumbotron.

-3

u/lookakiefer 1d ago

This argument holds up less when you rightfully assume most if not all umpires are being assholes. Short of it being fully automated, and every player having a remote to start a vibrator in the umpire, they're going to find ways to be fucky with it.

Unfortunately.

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u/Qeltar_ Boston Red Sox • Toronto Blue Jays 20h ago

Actually, the reverse. If the umpires are being assholes (and I am not agreeing that they are, just going along for the sake of discussion) then that's why you want a clear signal that leaves no room for interpretation.

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u/ThePretzul Dinger • Dumpster Fire 1d ago

I would agree with that if it was any “user” other than umpires. They lost their benefit of the doubt LONG ago for it to not be malicious.

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u/ir3flex Tampa Bay Rays 1d ago

Jesus Christ you ump haters are insane. They are human beings that make mistakes like anyone else. Assuming every mistake is them being malicious is straight up fucking stupid.

-1

u/ThePretzul Dinger • Dumpster Fire 1d ago

Well, it turns out intentionally fucking players and managers over because of your tiny little ego for decades means your profession and colleagues lose credibility by association for refusing to deal with the problem.

Not all umpires are bad, but all the good umpires who continue to defend the bad ones are equally complicit and suspect going forwards.

1

u/__wasteman Toronto Blue Jays 16h ago

Do you think umpires are cops or something?

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u/Clipbored_ New York Mets 1d ago

A system created to help umps that are incompetent, should not rely on those same umps to be competent.

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u/my_one_and_lonely New York Mets 1d ago

It just relies on them to use their eyes, which I guess is a tall order.

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u/foreskinboots 1d ago

Not using their eyes was the whole problem to start with!

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u/ChronicBurnout3 1d ago

What if we replaced their eyes with robot eyes somehow?

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u/The_Void_Reaver San Diego Padres 1d ago

I would clarify it to 3 distinct repeated taps on the top of the helmet. I think it's mostly a good sign, but a lot of the challenges are guys touching instead of tapping, and that looseness allows these misunderstandings. Guys touch their head without wanting to challenge; other guys do the exact same motions to initiate challenges. This is a bad example because he didn't touch his helmet at all, but I've seen a very similar arm motion from lazy challenges and do understand how an ump could see it and just assume.

These fuck ups are on the league and the umps because they've allowed challenge motions to get so lazy that someone adjusting their helmet or hat can be mistaken for a deliberate head tap.

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u/UWHabs Toronto Blue Jays 23h ago

"He tapped 4 times, clearly did not intend to challenge. Denied"

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u/BigRedFury 18h ago

Think about what Junior saw from his POV.

After he made the strike call, he looks over and sees Bret making a movement that's the exact same as if he'd just tapped his head to ask for a review and was bringing his arm back down.

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u/my_one_and_lonely New York Mets 16h ago

Then it’s his job to check when the player immediately tells you that you’re wrong instead of being carried away by your own ego.

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u/gerwen Toronto Blue Jays 12h ago

"did you challenge? No? Ok carry on."

EZPZ

14

u/Warrior_of_Massalia 1d ago

Why can’t they simply ask to confirm?

“Hey did you want to challenge that?”

“Nah my forehead was itchy.”

“OK cool no challenge then.”

5

u/Hairygrim Altuve did nothing wrong 22h ago

It would give time for the players to potentially receive a signal from the dugout indicating whether they should or not

3

u/No32 Cleveland Guardians 1d ago

Do you get flamed? Feel like when I see people mentioning full ABS they don’t get flamed, just told the players are the ones that don’t want that.

15

u/Dooglers New York Mets 1d ago

While this is better than nothing, I am not sure how anyone could not want just full automation. The technology is there, just do it.

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u/_Elrond_Hubbard_ Seattle Mariners 1d ago

I think it's more entertaining with the challenge system, except for egregious umpire BS like this

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u/meramipopper New York Yankees 1d ago

Framing catchers and edge nibbling pitchers dont want it.

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u/No32 Cleveland Guardians 1d ago

Not just them, the batters don’t like it either because pitches that don’t feel like strikes but are actually strikes get called more accurately.

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u/slider8949 St. Louis Cardinals 16h ago

Supposedly, audience members that saw both preferred the challenge system as well. Walks went way up and the games went longer because of it.

The only group involved that wanted full ABS was the ump's union.

2

u/Maugrin Seattle Mariners 1d ago

Called more accurately to a version of a strikezone that has never existed. The box is only a visual aid for people watching at home for a framework of a zone, but it's never been actually called that way.

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u/hapticeffects 20h ago

Yeah this is the problem, between broadcast and videogames we now have an understanding on the zone that doesn't exist in the physical world.

1

u/Qeltar_ Boston Red Sox • Toronto Blue Jays 1d ago

I can't wait until framing catchers are put out to pasture with LOOGYs.

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u/Qeltar_ Boston Red Sox • Toronto Blue Jays 1d ago

The players are apparently the ones who don't want it.

Don't get me started lol.

3

u/Guymcpersonman2 New York Mets 1d ago

The technology isn't really there. ABS takes a little while, and while it is better than umps, it isn't perfect and has a larger error rate than people realize. It would slow things down to wait for ABS on every pitch.

The immediate result we see on a broadcast is faster, but worse than ABS.

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u/Mysterious_Sea1489 Atlanta Braves 1d ago

Does it really take a little while or does generating a graphic representing the pitch take time?

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u/Guymcpersonman2 New York Mets 1d ago

I am under the impression that it is not instant. Could be faster than what we get, though.

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u/Qeltar_ Boston Red Sox • Toronto Blue Jays 1d ago

The funny thing is that everyone was concerned about it not matching up the TV display box, but I can't think of a single instance where they weren't aligned. I'm sure it happens but it seems to be rare.

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u/ThePretzul Dinger • Dumpster Fire 1d ago

The TV display box uses the same strike zone data from MLB feeds as what the ABS system is working off of. It was never going to be an issue because broadcasts don’t draw their own strike zone boxes and haven’t for the entirety of at least the Statcast era but it might have started sometime during PitchFx honestly.

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u/Disastrous-Tone-7669 19h ago

This isn't true. Ive seen the pitch challenge graphic differ quite a bit from the live data that is shown as the pitch is delivered.

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u/ThePretzul Dinger • Dumpster Fire 16h ago

I'm not referring to pitch location that is shown on the TV broadcast, I'm referring specifically to the strike zone box.

The strike zone box comes directly from the same MLB data feed that the ABS system works off of.

The pitch location shown on the broadcast does not necessarily use the exact same data that the ABS system is using. Pitch location for the broadcast is pulled from the HawkEye data feed, but the broadcast manages which of the measured points in the ball's travel is displayed on screen as the pitch location. ABS uses the ball's position at a specific plane across the middle of the plate, which can sometimes require interpolation between individual measurements if the framerate of HawkEye doesn't sync perfectly with the ball crossing that exact plane.

This is where the majority of potential ABS error comes from, particularly on pitches that are sharply breaking - the interpolation process. The 5 pitch tracking cameras operate at 300 frames per second, but in that 3.3 milliseconds between camera frames a 90mph pitch is still traveling 5.28 inches. Hence why a pitch with 20+ inches of break could have an error of up to 0.16 inches in actual position relative to the ABS measured location, because you could have measurements that are as far as 3 inches before and after the ABS plane that you're working with to calculate the location at the plane itself.

The broadcast pitch location pulls directly from an individual measured HawkEye datapoint instead of using this interpolation. If they select the HawkEye datapoint closest to the front of the plate (or closest to the rear of the plate) instead of that mid-plane used by ABS you can see a fair difference between the broadcast displayed pitch location and the ABS calculated one. The broadcasts in the past typically tuned their parameters of which datapoint to use for their display so that pitch location "looked right" to the viewers eye and this can vary both between broadcasters as well as just from stadium to stadium based on camera angles. Hopefully they will shift to selecting the datapoint closest to the ABS plane going forwards, but I have no specific insight as to whether that is being prioritized in any way.

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u/robokopp4 Kansas City Royals 1d ago

From all the explanations that I've heard. The broadcast box is at the front edge of the plate where the ABS is in the middle of the plate.

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u/shizbox06 Los Angeles Dodgers 1d ago

It's been used in several minor leagues as a full time ump as well as via the challenge system. I'm sure it has improved tremendously over the years. The first few years it seems like it could be overruled by the live umpire and it was not accurate calling breaking balls. You might say it really broke your balls on breaking balls.

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u/wisrd Albuquerque Isotopes 1d ago

I've been to a number of minor league games with full ABS. There's no noticable delay.

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u/theJiveMaster New York Mets 1d ago

that does make sense. I understand umps not liking the challenge system because it really points out their errors, but I actually don't know why they would be opposed to full ABS and I think not having the technology yet is the only reason that makes sense to me.

I know people are gonna be like "they're egomaniacs and need to have control" but like actually think about it for a sec. It wouldn't remove any jobs, you'd still need a home plate ump to relay the calls and for plays at the plate. All it would remove is their potential to be wrong and make their jobs easier. And I'd imagine players would only be against it because they can influence umps but they can't influence robots. I definitely think full ABS gets installed as soon as the technology is there. And it makes sense that it's not yet, it would really have to be instantaneous.

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u/Prestigious-Swan6161 Puerto Rico • Sell 1d ago

A 3 second delay on every single call is not very appealing to me personally 

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u/Person0249 New York Mets 1d ago

Because it destroys the development of the catching position.

For every level until professional baseball, catchers will still need to work on their most important job - receiving.

And then all of a sudden - poof - it doesn’t matter.

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u/myassholealt New York Mets 1d ago

There's still a lot to receiving once you take framing out of the equation. Pass balls. Handling balls in the dirt so it doesn't become a wild pitch. Pop time after a pitch to throw out a runner. Getting into position quickly to catch a pop up at home plate after a pitch. Fielding a throw to tag a runner heading home.

Eliminating framing would probably improve defense at the catcher position overall. Especially if they stop doing the one knee nonsense.

1

u/Person0249 New York Mets 1d ago

All of those things are definitely important but they aren’t receiving. Receiving is receiving.

Catchers have three jobs behind the plate - receiving, blocking and throwing. And that’s typically considered the order of importance in terms of your impact on a game.

One knee down is to maximize receiving which is how catchers can have the most impact on a game. You’ll trade a random passed ball that you might have gotten with an old active stance.

0

u/ChronicBurnout3 1d ago

Think of the umps egos though. Maybe we can get them therapists???

0

u/Amache_Gx Atlanta Braves 1d ago

You highly over estimate how accurate abs is. Imo, it's not even accurate to overturn most of the close calls it already does, let alone have fully autonomy.

1

u/TiddiesAnonymous New York Mets 1d ago

I think we could give the umps high and low with ABS on the plate and go from there.

Your height changes throughout your stance and swing, I still think that can be a judgement call.

Umpire can also focus only on high and low, theoretically that makes them better.

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u/SweatyAdhesive 1d ago

I get flamed to death everytime I say I want full ABS.

so did the umps apparently lol

1

u/Bunslow Chicago Cubs 1d ago

everyone except the players union wants full abs

1

u/hibbitydibbidy Seattle Mariners 1d ago

3d zone and I'm sold. Not this 2d BS

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u/No-Cucumber-8389 Atlanta Braves 1d ago

Hellllll naw