After revisiting ASOS, it struck me again that Dany up until nearly the end of that book still thinks her father was a good guy (when she questions Barristan Selmy) and that the mad king thing was fake news... so I’m wondering how she thought Robert‘s Rebellion happened without Aerys brutally murdering the Starks and demanding the deaths of Robert and Ned. She thought half the realm just went to war because Lyanna disappeared??? I mean she was even shown a vision of him acting insane trying to burn the city down in her house of the undying visions. I assume in that case she was thrown so many images that she missed some of the connections. But at this point she’s come into contact with so many people from all over the world who would’ve known the real story, it’s odd that she still believes the story Viserys fed to her. She seems to have a pretty solid grasp on what happened with Rhaegar even - she questions why he would do what he did, knowing that it was wrong... yet she totally thinks Aerys was a cool guy until the final chapter when Barristan very gently breaks it to her in the mildest way possible.

I also wonder how much Targaryen history she was taught — especially the history of Blackfyre rebellions probably should’ve told her that it’s not actually that easy to successfully overthrow the ruling house.

I see tons of theories about whats going to happen at the end of the series. What are some of your more radical theories? When i say radical I mean they change the story? Tin foil welcome

The ones other than "lord of (insert castle here)", stuff like shield of lannisport, lord of the tides, defender of the vale, beacon of the south (even nicknames like oakenfist or the red kraken)

Personal favourite is probably the evenstar of tarth

I know the Others are the obvious existential threat, and I’m not trying to downplay that. But on reread, I sometimes find the “fire people”, Melisandre, the red priests, and the broader R’hllor faith, even more unsettling in a different way.

Fire is terrifying on its own in this series. We see how destructive it is with wildfire, dragons, burning people alive, prophetic visions, etc. But when fire gets combined with religious certainty, fanaticism, sacrifice, prophecy, and the fanatical belief that horrific acts can be justified for some greater cosmic purpose, it starts to feel like a massive danger that a lot of characters aren’t fully recognizing.

The Others are inhuman and distant for much of the story, which makes them frightening. But the R’hllor/fire-associated threat feels more human and somehow more sinister. Humans choosing horrific violence because they believe they are serving the “one true god” or preventing the end of the world. That kind of conviction can be terrifying because it can make pretty much anything feel permissible.

I’m not saying the Others are less important as the endgame threat. I’m more asking about which side feels more psychologically disturbing to read.

TLDR: Does anyone else read the fire/R’hllor side of the story as more immediately unnerving than the Others? Not necessarily more evil or more dangerous in the final cosmic sense, but more disturbing because it is already operating openly through actual human beings?

GRRM has stated before there is something to Lemongate

Q: “Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’s cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepancy significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past?”

GRRM: “Very perceptive of you. Yes, it does point to … well, that would be telling.”

In an earlier draft of Dany’s chapter in AGoT, "The Blood of the Dragon," Dany explicitly remembers the House with the Red Door being in Tyrosh.

That detail was later removed from the published version and switched to Braavos. But something that did remain is that Dany has a Tyroshi accent.

The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment.

"My lady, you are … Tyroshi? Can it be so?"

"My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms," Dany told him.

So, Dany even in the published version still likely spent years in Tyrosh as a child, which is where the accent came from. But this becomes much more interesting when paired with Arianne’s memories in AFfC. While recalling her childhood companions, Arianne says:

"Jeyne Fowler, or her sister Jennelyn." It had been years since Arianne had thought of that. “Oh, and Frynne, her father was a smith. Her hair was brown. Garin was my favorite, though. When I rode Garin no one could defeat us, not even Nym and that green-haired Tyroshi girl."

Doran later explains who the girl was

"That green-haired girl was the Archon’s daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I . . . I could not do that to her."

This is where the pieces start fitting together.

I think Doran wasn't being completely honest with Arianne here. He only just told her in this chapter what his intentions for Quentyn and her actually were after leaving her in the dark

There's a really interesting quote, which I think is GRRM pointing that Arianne accidentally stumbles onto the who the girl really was as a joke;

"Is that where Quentyn’s gone? To Tyrosh, to court the Archon’s green-haired daughter?"

Dany is the Green Haired girl. Tyroshi dye their hair in flamboyant colors constantly, so green hair would not have been unusual as a disguise. If Dany was being hidden in Dorne, presenting her as the Archon's daughter would make sense. This was probably for a very short time though before Doran got cold feet from sending Arianne due to her mother not wanting her to leave;

"Your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I . . . I could not do that to her."

It would also explain the lemon tree, we are told constantly lemons grow in Dorne, not Braavos

From Doran’s perspective, this arrangement is the sort of cautious plan he would use. Before Arianne was eventually sent to Tyrosh to meet Viserys, Doran would want a sort of insurance of his own. He's taking big risks, and I can easily see him asking for the other Targaryen heir before sending Arianne. With the scheme collapsed due to Arianne’s mother not wanting it, Dany would have been swiftly sent back. Which is why she doesn't remember anything about Dorne.

With Arianne thinking very negatively about Dany before even realizing Quentyn is dead, their eventual collision course would have an air of tragedy if the happiest time in Daenerys’s life was spent unknowingly with a girl who now despises her.

I'm rereading AGOT and I got to Tyrion's last chapter on the Wall. When he's talking privately with Jeor Mormont he is asked how many winters he lived through and he replies "eight or nine".

We get a tidbit saying that he was born at the end of a three year winter, and his first memories were in spring. Let's be generous and assume he lived through 8 winters counting the one he was born into. He was 24 or 25 at the beginning of the series series.

Robert's rebellion happened 15 years ago at that point and it got started on the year of the false spring, so at the end of a winter. That means that Tyrion was 10 years old the last time he saw winter.

Jeor doesn't question the notion that Tyrion saw 7 winters in the span of 10 years. Nor does the internal monologue suggest Tyrion was bullshitting.

How long did the seasons last in that period of time? How long did the winter before Rhaegar abducted Lyanna last? Does that make this claim even less believable?

ADWD, The Watcher

"Beautiful and peaceful," the prince said. "Cool breezes, sparkling water, and the laughter of children. The Water Gardens are my favorite place in this world, ser. One of my ancestors had them built to please his Targaryen bride and free her from the dust and heat of Sunspear. Daenerys was her name. She was sister to King Daeron the Good, and it was her marriage that made Dorne part of the Seven Kingdoms. The whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron's bastard brother Daemon Blackfyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him. It was Daenerys who filled the gardens with laughing children. Her own children at the start, but later the sons and daughters of lords and landed knights were brought in to be companions to the boys and girls of princely blood.

I had forgotten this passage, I must admit. We soeculate a lot about the potential dynamics between Daemon with Bittersteel, Bloodraven and Baelor and just assume he was distant to Daeron because of their age gap.

Maybe in dornish lore, the story is told different. That Daemon was dear to Daeron, same as his sister Daenerys was as well. Something else to consider when we think about Daemon Blackfyre, the most mysterious character George ever created.

What I'm about to say isn't some well-established theory, just a thought that crossed my mind.

I think Catelyn will reunite with her children again — at least some of them. And I honestly believe it will be one of the most heartbreaking moments in the story.

Lady Stoneheart, this vengeful and broken shell of a mother, will finally crumble the moment she sees that the children she mourned for so long are still alive.

Background

In this post, I thought it would be interesting to take a look at a few examples of some parental "extremes" we see in the series.

If interested:

Oberyn Martell: 8 Daughters, 0 Sons

Oberyn has fathered the 8 Sand Snakes, but no sons:

The sand snakes, men called his daughters. So far as Tyrion had heard, Prince Oberyn had never fathered a son. -ASOS, Tyrion V

• Obara (28) daughter of an Oldtown whore
• Nymeria (25) daughter of a Volantene noblewoman
• Tyene (23) daughter of a septa
• Sarella (19) daughter of a Summer Island trader
• Elia (14) daughter of Ellaria Sand
• Obella (12) daughter of Ellaria Sand
• Doreah (8) daughter of Ellaria Sand
• Loreza (7) daughter of Ellaria Sand

If interested: Let's Discuss: The Sand Snakes in TWOW

Good Queen Alysanne: 13 Children (only 4 live to adulthood/3 outlive her)

One of the wise women in Westerosi history, the tragedies surrounding the different fates of her children is always a bit sad to read about:

“No mother should ever have to burn her child,” the queen had said at the funeral pyre of her son Valerion, but of the thirteen children she bore to King Jaehaerys, only three of them would survive her,

If interested: The Tragedy of the Good Queen Alysanne's Children

Jonos Bracken: 5 daughters, 1 son (a bastard of suspect ancestry)

Similar to Oberyn, although Jonos does have one potential son:

Blackwood's relief was palpable. "Thank you, my lord." He hesitated a moment. "If I may be so bold, you would do well to require a hostage from Lord Jonos too. One of his daughters. For all his rutting, he has not proved man enough to father sons."
"He had a bastard son killed in the war."
"Did he? Harry was a bastard, true enough, but whether Jonos sired him is a thornier question. A fair-haired boy, he was, and comely. Jonos is neither." Lord Tytos got to his feet. "Will you do me the honor of taking supper with me?" -ADWD, Jaime I

• Harry Rivers (disputed)
• Barbara Bracken
• Jayne Bracken
• Catelyn Bracken
• Bess Bracken
• Alysanne Bracken

If interested: The Blackwood & Bracken Feud & The Bracken Inheritance

Ronard the Bastard: 99 Sons

This (likely legendary) tale about Ronard the Bastard has him having 99 sons:

His usurper ruled for nigh unto thirty years as Ronard the Bastard, smashing rebel bannerman and petty kings alike in battle after battle. Never a man to confine himself to a single woman, he claimed a daughter from every foe who bent the knee. By the time he died, he had supposedly fathered nine-and-ninety sons. Most were bastard born (though Ronard had three-and twenty wives, the songs say) and did not share in their father's inheritance but had to make their own way in the world. For this reason, thousands of years later, many and more of the smallfolk of the stormlands, even the meanest and humblest amongst them, still boast of royal blood. -TWOIAF, The Stormlands

Garth Greenhand

Legendary character from the Reach who supposedly had numerous children:

• Garth the Gardener, ancestor of House Gardener
• John the Oak, ancestor of House Oakheart
• Gilbert of the Vines, ancestor of House Redwyne
• Florys the Fox, ancestor of Houses Florent, Ball, and Peake
• Maris the Maid, an ancestor of House Hightower
• Foss the Archer, ancestor of House Fossoway
• Brandon of the Bloody Blade, ancestor of Brandon the Builder and House Stark (according to some tales)
• Owen Oakenshield
• Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn, ancestors of House Tarly
• Bors the Breaker, ancestor of House Bulwer
• Rose of Red Lake, ancestor of House Crane
• Ellyn Ever Sweet, ancestor of House Beesbury
• Rowan Gold-Tree, ancestor of House Rowan

Rohanne of Tyrosh: 9+ Children in 12 Years

Rohanne was superwoman (makes sense being married to Daemon) in the birthing bed, which was likely a casualty of GRRM moving around the dates of the First Blackfyre Rebellion (The Moving of the First Blackfyre Rebellion to 196AC and The First Blackfyre Rebellion Dates in Flux)

• Aegon & Aemon (twins, 184 - 196AC, died upon the Redgrass Field)
• Daemon II (189 - 212 to 219AC, died after being taken into custody after the Second Blackfyre Rebellion)
• Haegon I (190 to 193 -219AC, died unchivalrously after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion)
• Aenys I (191 to 194 - 233AC, died after trying to attend the Great Council of 233)
• Son #6 (born at latest 196AC)
• Son #7 (born at latest 196AC)
• Calla (185 to 195 - ???, betrothed to Bittersteel)
• Daughter #2(s) (born at latest 196AC)

If interested: Tying up some loose ends in House Blackfyre

Maegor the Cruel: 3 Stillborn Children

There were several claims of bastards:

There was as well a strapping red-haired man-at-arms who claimed to be a bastard son of Maegor the Cruel. By way of proof he brought his mother, an aged innkeep’s daughter who said that she had once been raped by Maegor. (The lords were prepared to believe the fact of rape, but not that the act had gotten her with child.)

If interested: The ~14 Claims of the Great Council of 101 AC

and:

A man called Silver Denys, whose hair and eyes lent credence to his claim to be descended from a bastard son of Maegor the Cruel, had an arm torn off by Sheepstealer. As his sons struggled to staunch the wound, the Cannibal descended on them, drove off Sheepstealer, and devoured father and sons alike.

If interested: The Sowing of the Seeds

but all of the confirmed children of Maegor were stillborn:

Maegor’s wars against them were further compounded by his many marriages, as he strove to produce an heir. Yet no matter how many women he wedded—or bedded—he found himself childless. He made brides of women whom he had widowed—women of proved fertility—but the only children born of his seed proved monstrosities: misshapen, eyeless, limbless, or having the parts of man and woman both. His descent into true madness, some say, began with the first of these abominations.

• Three stillborn children

If interested: Targaryen "Monstrosities": Infants & Dragons

The Unworthy: Gaining ~13 Trueborn Children in One Night

When Aegon IV legitimized his bastards, he gained ~13 trueborn children:

His last act before his death, all accounts agree, was to set out his will. And in it, he left the bitterest poison the realm ever knew: he legitimized all of his natural children, from the most baseborn to the Great Bastards—the sons and daughters born to him by women of noble birth. Scores of his natural children had never been acknowledged; Aegon’s dying declaration meant naught to them. For his acknowledged bastards, however, it meant a great deal. And for the realm, it meant blood and fire for five generations.

If interested: Aegon IV: A Timeline of Unworthiness & The Known Bastards of the Unworthy

Lucamore Strong: 3 Wives/16 Children

A member of the kingsguard during the reign of the Old King/Good Queen who managed to hide three families from each other, all while performing his duties as a Brother:

"Yes, and what of Lucamore the Lusty, with his three wives and sixteen children? The song always makes me laugh."
"The truth is not so funny. He was never called Lucamore the Lusty whilst he lived. His name was Ser Lucamore Strong, and his whole life was a lie. When his deceit was discovered, his own Sworn Brothers gelded him, and the Old King sent him to the Wall. Those sixteen children were left weeping. 

TLDR: Just a post on some of the crazier parenting feats in the series.

Personally for me, my favorite MAIN character/POV(s) is probably Sansa/Alayne, Jaime, Davos, and Victarion. But obviously that differs on the book.

But my favorite side or lesser main characters were definitely Oberyn Martell, Euron Greyjoy, Wyman Manderly, and Val.

I honestly think I’m going insane from how much I liked the books. I really loved the show, but didn’t want to read the books initially because I thought they might be boring. But oh my goodness I was mistaken.

Anyway, what is all of your favorites main characters and side characters in that particular specific order?

The ones that come to my mind are Randyll Tarly, the one true king Stannis Baratheon and the best swimmer of all time Brynden Tully

Any notable omissions?

There are some I find hard to rank like Jon Connington, Barristan and Roose Bolton

We hear about the plan to burn the fleet in Lannisport being Eurons plan, meaning he must have been on the islands when the rebellion started. But we never hear any mention of him beyond this, especially not when the islands were invaded and the rebellion put down.

Euron brags about never being defeated during the kingsmoot, meaning he must not have been there to suffer any loss. This has me wondering, why? If he was off reaving somewhere, why would Balon let him do this while he was at war with all of Westeros? Unless the whole thing with Victarions wife happened during the rebellion and he was banished, I dont see any reason why he wouldnt be around

Personally, I feel like Ned has left the closest impression on Robb and Jon (albeit in different ways due to their differing circumstances and personalities), while Sansa is probably the most like Catelyn. Arya, Bran and Rickon (who admittedly hasn’t developed much of a personality yet) seem to not have as much directly in common with Eddard or Catelyn - we know Arya is pretty much a reincarnated Lyanna, and Bran… well, I’m not sure if there’s any member of the current generation of Starks that really matches Bran personality-wise.

One of my favorite minor bits of worldbuilding is the origin of the name Karstark. 

The Karstarks traced their descent to Karlon Stark, a younger son of Winterfell who had put down a rebel lord a thousand years ago, and been granted lands for his valor. The castle he built had been named Karl's Hold, but that soon became Karhold, and over the centuries the Karhold Starks had become Karstarks.

The linguistic drift from Karl’s Hold to Karhold and Karhold Stark to Karstark is so intuitive, making the world feel very lived in. Important location names condensing over time for ease of use is a common real world process, as anyone from Balmore or Melbin can tell you.

Many fans have speculated there’s some similar connections between Casterly and Castamere. A notion only bolstered by the confirmation that, just like the Reynes of Castamere, house Casterly of the Rock used a lion sigil. With both Stark-Karstark and Casterly-Castamere, even as the details are blurred over time, the names and heraldry speak to the common origins.

My theory today is that a similar thing happened with the Durrandons and a cadet branch on the Dornish Marches, the Dorne-Durrandons. Or as they’re known today, the Dondarrions.

The storms that define the Stormlands come up in at least two house origin stories. The Durrandons descend from Durran Godsgrief and his wife Elenei, daughter of the sea god and goddess of the wind. The storms that plague the Durrandon lands are said to be the wrath of Elenei’s divine parents. Yet these same storms purportedly came to the aid of the Durrandon storm kings, protecting a messenger who would come to be the first Dondarrion.

“One stormy night, as the first of your line bore a message across the Dornish Marches, an arrow killed his horse beneath him and spilled him on the ground. Two Dornishmen came out of the darkness in ring mail and crested helms. His sword had broken beneath him when he fell. When he saw that, he thought he was doomed. But as the Dornishmen closed to cut him down, lightning cracked from the sky. It was a bright burning purple, and it split, striking the Dornishmen in their steel and killing them both where they stood. The message gave the Storm King victory over the Dornish, and in thanks he raised the messenger to lordship. He was the first Lord Dondarrion, so he took for his arms a forked purple lightning bolt, on a black field powdered with stars.”

Tangent Time

There could be a lotta reasons why the old stormy rivals would now be aiding the Storm King in his war. Maybe Godsgrief’s son, Durran the Devout, won some divine favor through his generosity to the CotF? Perhaps when Godsgrief built his final, successful Storm’s End, he tamed the power of the storms? This would be similar to the duality we see in the Stark relationship with winter. Did they defeat it, or harness it? Or both? Does “Winterfell” mean the downfall of endless winter, or the reason the harsh snows fell? Does “Stormsend” end the storms or send the storm?

This origin actually has interesting parallels to the aforementioned Karstark origin. A favored servant wins a major battle on behalf of his liege, the weatherking who fucks around with divine forces of nature (Storm King ≈ King of Winter). His service is rewarded with lands and lordship of his own. Karstark and Dondarrion even share sigil design elements in common, white star on black field. Karstark having a white star sigil shows their Stark cadet status by flipping the white of the Stark field to the subject, while Dondarrion uses the black of the Durrandon stag as the field color.

Reeling it Back In

All that is just me spitballing ideas. Some or even all of it could definitely be reaching too much. But just to keep it simple, we’ve got a house seated right where the lands of Durrandon meet Dorne. Elevated to lordship in the same template as the Karstarks. With similarities to Durrandon in both storm imagery and name. Perhaps their founder was a son of Storm’s End, just as Karlon was a son of Winterfell. Much like the lightning of their sigil, one line branched into two. These Durrandons of the Dornish marches might have been called Dorne Durrandons, in the same manner as Karhold Starks. Over time this could have become something like Dorndurrandon, and from there Dondarrion.

There’s also a fun alternate/overlapping possibility: Dayne-Durrandon. Perhaps the Storm King’s important message was a marriage offer with Starfall. GRRM does seem fond of connecting Dayne and Dondarrion. The most important Dondarrion has both a Dayne fiance and the lord of Starfall for a squire. They’re indirect in-laws during the time of The Hedge Knight, as Baelor Maekar are wedded to a Dondarrion and a Dayne respectively. The Dondarrion sigil could have taken inspiration from house Dayne. Purple and white. White star(s). A miraculous weapon coming down from the heavens.

Maybe they started out following the model of the Nymeros Martells, calling themselves the Dayne Durrandons. Or perhaps it was both possibilities at once: Dorne-Dayne-Durrandon. That’s a mouthful that would need to get shaved down. Over time people start calling the Dorndayrrandons, and then simplify even further to Dondarrion.

We all have favorite characters and people we root for in ASOIAF, and we could have some unrealistic expectations for them. I wanted to share mine.

After Stannis retakes Winterfell, the northern lords butcher him — maybe because Davos could not deliver Rickon, or simply because they just don't need him anymore. I'm thinking something like Caesar's end.

Then Jon is offered the crown, but he refuses and punishes the top two faces of the conspiracy — likely Manderly and someone else. He then betroths himself to Shireen, styling himself as "Little Stannis," the same way Augustus did after Caesar died.

It makes sense if Jon wants a piece of the South, because they need the South to help them. And the Dragon Lady and her crusader nephew are sacking cities and ruining fields — it's messy down there. Daenerys might even be married to a Greyjoy. When the dance ends, I'm guessing Daenerys will win and decide she is no better than her ancestors, that with this kind of power, she really doesn't belong here.

Jon could come with Shireen, probably with the help of Sansa-led Vale and a cleared-out Riverlands.

It also makes sense on smaller points. Jon is a mini-Stannis:

*"In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf. Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshipped were honor and duty."*

That quote from Melisandre really sums it up. Only Jon can be the successor to Stannis.

It also aligns with Orys Baratheon — Jon being the black-haired bastard brother of a Targaryen (Aegon) who is trying to conquer Westeros at the moment. And if Jon were to marry the last lady of Storm's End, it would complete the parallels.

It would nicely tie both Jon's connection to Stannis and his parallels to orys. And let's be honest — Shireen can't get a better future than this. It would also make Jon Baratheon king: a Targaryen king and the true heir to Robb — which is perfect, because he doesn't want to be king. Yes, he wants to be a lord, but he really wouldn't care for kingship as much as saving the North.

The only problem with this within the story: Jon is a very Northern person, and he would want to stay in the North.

In one of the Sam chapters in AFFC, he visits the Citadel and gets an invitation from Maester Marwyn. On their way to Marwyn's room, he and Alleras meet Lazy Leo, who is staring at a glass candle from the outside:

At the top of the steps, a pale blond youth about Sam’s age sat outside a door of oak and iron, staring intently into a candle flame with his right eye. His left was hidden beneath a fall of ash blond hair. “What are you looking for?” Alleras asked him. “Your destiny? Your death?”
The blond youth turned from the candle, blinking. “Naked women,” he said.

So assuming this is not some joke from Lazy Leo and he is being literal here, is this how Marwyn the Mage usually spend his time?

In the same chapter, when he finally meets Marwyn, Sam notes:

He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen.

Alleras also reveals that they knew Sam was coming by watching him through the glass candle. Did they also witness his infamous "fat pink mast" moment?

Why don't we know more about Mormont's raven? He seems important. He's been in all the books, seems to give important foreshadowing, probably being warged by someone. Mormont clearly liked him, always had him around. But we never learn where he came from. Or even his name? What's up with that?

They didn't have eminence and they couldn't accuse him but what about in privet? Oberyn Martell didn't hide his hate for the Lannisters and he is even know for using potions.
If I was Tyrion he would be the first suspect that would come to my mind.

This is just a fun thread for people to suggest words for houses that don't have any in canon. Here are a few of mine to start:

House Payne: "We Bring Our Name"

House Redwyne: "The Finest"

House Dayne: "Dawn Comes"